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  1. #501
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    Quote Originally Posted by Real Deal Steel View Post
    For argument sake, if Dennard is the pick in the first round,

    If Jordan Matthews, Tuitt, Chris Borland and Jeramiah Attaoucha are on the board, which way would you go then? I know which way I'd go but I'm curious to see what everyone else thinks.
    It would be between Matthews and Tuitt to me. I would probably go matthews and cringe doing it because i really like Tuitt in this scheme
    Quote Originally Posted by NeilPatrickBanana View Post
    If Dennard is the pick, they add a shutdown corner for the first time in eons... and it's a sign they are aware of their schematic flaws, and are changing to fit today's game.

    You need to review this:
    http://www.rotoworld.com/articles/cf...-cb-metrics-10
    seen it

    Eons huh? How bout that "elite" corner keenan lewis? lol they sure changed a lot for such an "elite" talent didnt they?

    Dennard would be an ok pick, but i say they better kick *** because since hes ok he really plays a position that is and should be undervalued in the defense they run (compared to the front 7 and pass rush in general). Some secondaries are made to help the pass rush, some pas rushes are made to help the secondary, the steeler as is rely so heavily on the pass rush which has just been **** poor. Not only would dennard not play much as a rookie because of the nature of the scheme (playing/starting in year one is just not a requirement no matter how many people think it is, you CAN draft looking down the road too) but i see dennard as a potentail top 12-15 CB because he is an ok player, i just dont see the value for the steelers at pick 15, seems high for a medium impact player

    heres some more talk about how great he is...meh

    http://blogs.thescore.com/nfl/2014/0...tes-receivers/

    Yeah...dominates in the big 10, sure, that is setting the bar for dominating low
    Last edited by K Train; 04-21-2014 at 11:33 AM.

  2. #502
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    Quote Originally Posted by NeilPatrickBanana View Post
    more fun Dennard stats

    He had 118 passes thrown his way... and allowed just 18 completions... that's an unheard of 15% completion percentage.
    He gave up 5.78 yards per completion, the lowest of ANY starting DB in the BCS era (1998)
    He held the opponent to 0.88 yards per attempt against... the lowest of ANY starting DB... since data began being collected IN 1968
    Of those 118 passes, Dennard jammed/rerouted the WR on 67 of them (56%)

    On tape, Dennard looks every bit the part of a franchise shutdown corner
    Most people can't comprehend the tape, so they wait for the combine
    Dennard's combine numbers are average
    Dennard's tape and raw metrics are off the charts

    He's one of the best man 2 man/press corner prospects to come out in the last 5-6 years.
    The one thing that scares me about Dennard is the level of competition. Over the course of his college career including bowl games who has he really faced across the line from him? Robinson, Abbrederis? Gallon or Lattimore? Pro QB's?

    I know you can only play the man in front of you, and if you shut him down you've done your job. I just wonder how his style of play will be flagged in the NFL, and if the jump in competition will be an easy adjustment for him, not saying there's a bunch of world beaters in the north, but just wondering. Was MSU defense #1 for two years because of Dennard, or did that dominating line make his life that much easier?

    If he were thrown at the most, tied for second worst in passes defended, yet still had the least amount of completions against him what is that saying? Is it saying that the QB's in the big ten just aren't that good? If he's not getting his hands on the ball as often yet the passes aren't being completed, that's what I'm trying to figure out. And 4.25 may be a very good percentage, I do realize we're talking about some of the best corners in the draft.

    He's great, I get it. I just feel that picking him 15 might require supplementing him with another defensive pick in the 2nd as well, because who knows how much time he'll see on the field.
    Last edited by WindyCityShaker; 04-21-2014 at 11:35 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by questforSB7 View Post
    And I have EVERY Steelers game on tape going back 20 years BEFORE Terry Bradshaw even picked up a football.

  3. #503
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    Quote Originally Posted by K Train View Post
    seen it
    you just choose to ignore cold hard data?

    Eons huh? How bout that "elite" corner keenan lewis? lol they sure changed a lot for such an "elite" talent didnt they?
    Lewis was not an elite talent coming out. He was built into a very good corner, whom we couldnt afford to keep, who went on to have an elite season. Not sure why you thought this was a good call out in order to distract from Dennard.

    Dennard would be an ok pick
    He'd be a great pick. He's a proven top talent at a position of organizational need, and a position that's impact on winning has grown exponentially over the last 5 years.

    but i say they better kick *** because since hes ok he really plays a position that is and should be undervalued in the defense they run (compared to the front 7 and pass rush in general).
    if this is true (it is), and the front office takes a player at that position in the first round (for the first time in 2 decades), it's logical to deduce that they are making schematic changes, that they identified the same weaknesses in the scheme that we have discussed for years.


    Some secondaries are made to help the pass rush, some pas rushes are made to help the secondary, the steeler as is rely so heavily on the pass rush which has just been **** poor. Not only would dennard not play much as a rookie because of the nature of the scheme (playing/starting in year one is just not a requirement no matter how many people think it is, you CAN draft looking down the road too) but i see dennard as a potentail top 12-15 CB because he is an ok player, i just dont see the value for the steelers at pick 15, seems high for a medium impact player
    If putting Dennard in cover 1/cover 3 press situations, makes the steelers better... then he can start from day 1. The Steelers zone coverages/responsibilities keep rookies off the field. If you are drafting Dennard, you are drafting him to play man to man. If you think his talent is worth 15th overall, you are changing things schematically... if you do that, he's on the field quickly.

    Note, this is not a scheme overhaul... this is simply more man situations on 1 side of the field. You can have Dennard playing press-man and press bail, and keep the core components of zone layered around it.

  4. #504
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    Isn't Dennard = Lewis? For the most part?
    Quote Originally Posted by questforSB7 View Post
    And I have EVERY Steelers game on tape going back 20 years BEFORE Terry Bradshaw even picked up a football.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WindyCityShaker View Post
    The one thing that scares me about Dennard is the level of competition. Over the course of his college career including bowl games who has he really faced across the line from him? Robinson, Abbrederis? Gallon or Lattimore? Pro QB's?

    I know you can only play the man in front of you, and if you shut him down you've done your job. I just wonder how his style of play will be flagged in the NFL, and if the jump in competition will be an easy adjustment for him, not saying there's a bunch of world beaters in the north, but just wondering. Was MSU defense #1 for two years because of Dennard, or did that dominating line make his life that much easier?

    If he were thrown at the most, tied for second worst in passes defended, yet still had the least amount of completions against him what is that saying? Is it saying that the QB's in the big ten just aren't that good? If he's not getting his hands on the ball as often yet the passes aren't being completed, that's what I'm trying to figure out. And 4.25 may be a very good percentage, I do realize we're talking about some of the best corners in the draft.

    He's great, I get it. I just feel that picking him 15 might require supplementing him with another defensive pick in the 2nd as well, because who knows how much time he'll see on the field.
    Those are valid arguments, and we can do it with ANY high end prospect... the sum total of Dennard's metrics don't lie.

  6. #506
    Assistant Coach Real Deal Steel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by K Train View Post
    It would be between Matthews and Tuitt to me. I would probably go matthews and cringe doing it because i really like Tuitt in this scheme

    seen it

    Eons huh? How bout that "elite" corner keenan lewis? lol they sure changed a lot for such an "elite" talent didnt they?

    Dennard would be an ok pick, but i say they better kick *** because since hes ok he really plays a position that is and should be undervalued in the defense they run (compared to the front 7 and pass rush in general). Some secondaries are made to help the pass rush, some pas rushes are made to help the secondary, the steeler as is rely so heavily on the pass rush which has just been **** poor. Not only would dennard not play much as a rookie because of the nature of the scheme (playing/starting in year one is just not a requirement no matter how many people think it is, you CAN draft looking down the road too) but i see dennard as a potentail top 12-15 CB because he is an ok player, i just dont see the value for the steelers at pick 15, seems high for a medium impact player

    heres some more talk about how great he is...meh

    http://blogs.thescore.com/nfl/2014/0...tes-receivers/

    Yeah...dominates in the big 10, sure, that is setting the bar for dominating low
    I'm not enamored with the selection of Dennard either. I don't like his size and I question his tackling. Which is essential in LeBeau's scheme also. But I"m talking solace in the fact that we go to dime and nickle situations so much, that this might make us more effective in those packages.

    And your right about the compitition in the Big Ten. It ain't nothing to write home to Momma about.
    The Steeler way...is the only way.

  7. #507
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    Quote Originally Posted by NeilPatrickBanana View Post
    Those are valid arguments, and we can do it with ANY high end prospect... the sum total of Dennard's metrics don't lie.
    By the way I do get that the jamming/re-routing can be responsible for a bunch of those incompletions as well. I like him, hell I like a lot of guys at 15. I'm just really, for lack of a better word scared of making a mistake with the pick. We don't come in at 15 often at all. I'm looking for the best player with the least amount of risk that fills a need. Who is that? Dennard? Cool lets do it. If it's someone else I'm apt to pass and pick up a corner later, there are a few to be had this year.
    Quote Originally Posted by questforSB7 View Post
    And I have EVERY Steelers game on tape going back 20 years BEFORE Terry Bradshaw even picked up a football.

  8. #508
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    Cold hard data lol. Based on Big 10 football i'd take the cold hard data with a grain of salt, those are some terribly ****** offenses which is not dennards fault or the fault of michigan states defense. He is a good CB prospect (not even CLOSE to as good as you are making him sound, probably not even top 10 over the last 5-6 years like you said). His speed is fine, he is a little stiff which is fine, hes a little grabby which is fine, he has mediocre ball skills which is fine.

    Overall grade: Hes fine at playing CB

    Hes elite at pretty much nothing, and prety good at pretty much everything

  9. #509
    Assistant Coach Real Deal Steel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by K Train View Post
    It would be between Matthews and Tuitt to me. I would probably go matthews and cringe doing it because i really like Tuitt in this scheme.
    For me, I'd tate Tuitt and let me tell you why:

    Because we took Dennard in the first, the only way to maximize the selection of Dennard is to get that pass rush up to par. So, I'd have to take Tuitt just so I could make Heyward and JJ more effective as pass rushers. Now, ..would I be dying inside because I want the big WR too? You bet I would! But you have to choose your path and having a dominant defense can take us a longer way then adding that Big WR. But there would be a tear in my eye as I say bye bye to Matthews.
    The Steeler way...is the only way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by K Train View Post
    Cold hard data lol. Based on Big 10 football i'd take the cold hard data with a grain of salt, those are some terribly ****** offenses which is not dennards fault or the fault of michigan states defense. He is a good CB prospect (not even CLOSE to as good as you are making him sound, probably not even top 10 over the last 5-6 years like you said). His speed is fine, he is a little stiff which is fine, hes a little grabby which is fine, he has mediocre ball skills which is fine.

    Overall grade: Hes fine at playing CB

    Hes elite at pretty much nothing, and prety good at pretty much everything
    Sorry, but now you sound like the same clowns who questioned Darrell Revis competition at Pitt, where the best WR he faced was Louisville's Mario Urratio.


    You and RDS are on the same page... maybe you should double check yourself on this one.

    Lots of great corners have played in lesser conferences (holy ****, i cant believe we have to refer to the big 10 as a lesser conference), and NONE of them have put up the baseline data Dennard has.

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