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Thread: Missouri DE Michael Sam: "I am an openly, proud gay man"

          
   
   
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  1. #11
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    To say it's a non-story is an opinion, but unfortunately a wrong one. How many "googles" of Michael Sam took place today, go ahead throw a number out there, now add another 3 zeroes......that makes it news. Whether or not it is news that matters to you.........well really only matters to you (speaking to the collective, no one in particular).

    I give the guy credit for standing up for what he represents, for possibly risking draft position and subsequently money to put out there who he is, and what you are going to get. For those that don't know, that is called integrity. There won't be any late season distractions, or surprises later sprung on teams, no one will ever be able to say "we didn't know". There will be a media frenzy on draft day, ota's, mini-camps, and pre-season. Sooner or later the luster of the story will wear off, and it'll be time to get to work. Someone will take him, and regardless of how he performs for whatever the duration of his career at the next level, he's a guy I bet busts his *** out there, one of those "die-trying" kind of guys.

    Personally, if he gets peace from all of this then who am I or you to drag on what he perceives to be important. I hold that it's really easy to say how you'd expect to get treated, and how you would react if you were black/gay/fat/..../etc. if you're actually not one of those people. Multiple scientific studies have shown that many "normal" people are completely clueless on what happens during the day to many types of minorities (think of all those hot girls wearing a fat suit type of experiments or Dan Akroyd in trading places.....sorry had to do it). People are all different and have different tolerances for pain/stress-coping/addiction..../etc....

    You're not racist? Go here https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/selectatest.html and take the Race IAT, hell take any of the tests, but at least try the race one (I notice there's one for sexuality as well). (Again not at any one person, sharing with everyone).

    MY bottom line is your attitude of "who cares" is correct.......if he's gay, want's to be public about it.......should you care?
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  2. #12
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    More people today are willing to accept "gays" than what they would have back in the 70/80/90s. Sorry, but this is no were near Jackie Robinson territory.

    This story is being blown way out of proportion. That's all that was on ESPN the past 2 days.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by WindyCityShaker View Post
    To say it's a non-story is an opinion, but unfortunately a wrong one. How many "googles" of Michael Sam took place today, go ahead throw a number out there, now add another 3 zeroes......that makes it news. Whether or not it is news that matters to you.........well really only matters to you (speaking to the collective, no one in particular).
    I agree with most of your post but not this part. I suspect Miley Cyrus "twerking" had more Google hits than this story. It is news but not the groundbreaking story being made of it.

    I give the guy credit for standing up for what he represents, for possibly risking draft position and subsequently money to put out there who he is, and what you are going to get. For those that don't know, that is called integrity. There won't be any late season distractions, or surprises later sprung on teams, no one will ever be able to say "we didn't know".
    Agree 100 percent.

    There will be a media frenzy on draft day, ota's, mini-camps, and pre-season. Sooner or later the luster of the story will wear off, and it'll be time to get to work. Someone will take him, and regardless of how he performs for whatever the duration of his career at the next level, he's a guy I bet busts his *** out there, one of those "die-trying" kind of guys.
    Agree again.

    Personally, if he gets peace from all of this then who am I or you to drag on what he perceives to be important. I hold that it's really easy to say how you'd expect to get treated, and how you would react if you were black/gay/fat/..../etc. if you're actually not one of those people. Multiple scientific studies have shown that many "normal" people are completely clueless on what happens during the day to many types of minorities (think of all those hot girls wearing a fat suit type of experiments or Dan Akroyd in trading places.....sorry had to do it). People are all different and have different tolerances for pain/stress-coping/addiction..../etc....
    It appears you believe I was criticizing his decision to come out. It could not be further from the truth. My comments were more directed at society's (the press) reaction to it.

    MY bottom line is your attitude of "who cares" is correct.......if he's gay, want's to be public about it.......should you care?
    No, I do not care. I await the day when he or anyone else does not feel the need to come out. They just live their life as they see fit and it does not even get people's attention. Some think that is homophobic, but oh well.
    "If I could start my life all over again, I would be a professional football player, and you damn well better believe I would be a Pittsburgh Steeler." -Jack Lambert

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by TarlsQtr View Post
    Name calling is the worst treatment Sam is likely to undergo, so to a great extent it is. His teammates are not going to tie him up and beat the guy. If they do, they WILL be dealt with severely.
    what do you base this on? What experience are you drawing from? What history? really... explain further.

    Well, it is a lot closer to the worst treatment Sam will have to tolerate than your Jackie Robinson "anecdote", that is for sure.
    you seem confused about what we are arguing about. here's a reminder of your comments, the one to which I was arguing with... "To me, this story is a nothingburger. I do not care one bit and wish making a big deal of this stuff would go away. The guy deserves respect just like anyone else, no more or less. Unfortunately, in an attempt by the press to do a hagiography, he will never be known as NFL player Michael Sam. He will be known as "first outwardly gay NFL player Michael Sam." IMO, that is as bad as bashing the guy for being gay."



    LOL No, it is a terrible analogy because worse even than comparing apples to oranges, it is comparing apples to sofas.
    you're just being dumb now... but i am interested in what the "because" was going to be... looks like you came up with nothing, and went with the dumb "sofas" comment.

    Nonsense. Will Sam be refused the right to eat with the team at a restaurant? Will he have to stay at a separate hotel? Will the hoses and dogs be sicced on him if he dares to drink from the same water fountain as straight players?
    Was Jackie held as property, chained in a dungeon? Was he bull whipped? Oh... see, his plight was no big deal when compared to the slaves who came before him.... yea, that's how stupid your argument sounds.

    we can't compare a minority breaking a barrier within sports, to any previous athlete breaking a sports a barrier, unless the parallels are historically identical and under identical circumstances??? nonsense. the truth, is that those of your persuasion have to dismiss the parallels, because of how stupid it makes you look.

    it's like listening to Rand Paul discuss the civil rights act... you can point to the present and make your argument, but you can't say the same thing about the past, as history has only sided with one side of the argument in that case. that's why you need to dismiss the OBVIOUS comparison to Robinson, because history has already decided. And your stuck trying to dismiss the comparison with terrible arguments like, "Jackie received death threats in the mail, i saw it in that movie.... what, No, Twitter is totally different than something arriving in your mail box."


    LOL Twitter? Does that mean Ann Coulter is a Civil Rights hero for being a conservative? She gets death threats all of the time on Twitter. The Olympics? Will Sam be getting drafted by the Sochi Bears NFL franchise?
    So Jackie receives death threats by mail, and someone else receives them via this generations mode of communication. there's no difference. You're getting denser by the argument

    You are living 60 years ago. We live in a society that is dominated by people like Ellen and TV shows like Modern Family. The real Jackie Robinson's went by the name of Billie Jean King, Martina Navratilova, etc. No one under 50 even cares.
    How many people under 50 own football teams?

    This is still a story of an individual breaking down a barrier, I'm living in the present where no male athlete in a major professional sport has come out at the beginning of his career. You want to pretend we live in a world where that isn't a big deal, and that is passive bigotry.


    Passive bigotry is believing that you have to see bigotry in everything and that people like Michael Sam are incapable of getting through life without people like you to push them forward.
    Passive bigotry is pretending that inequality doesn't exist and erecting philosophy as the barrier to dealing with it.

    Im not pushing anyone forward, nor do i need to push anyone forward.

    I am recognizing what is happening in the world, you don't want those things recognized. clearly, you are uncomfortable with them.


    See above. I believe that Sam is perfectly capable of getting through life without writing hagiographies because he is gay. You obviously do not. Yet I am the passive bigot? Too funny.
    hagiography is a keystone word for those who make your argument.



    Of course you are writing a story. You have already claimed that he will drop in the draft and teams will refuse to draft him because of sexual orientation.
    I asked questions.
    You will hide behind your philosophy, and I'll speculate based on history/reality.


    And you may want to rered your posts for coherence before clicking "Post Reply." You cannot logically make an argument that the kid is the next Jackie Robinson and THEN admit how the bigotry is now "passive." Likewise, you cannot make the case that the bigotry is now passive and then talk about how "homophobia kills." Make up your mind.
    you should work on your own reading comprehension. I didn't say ALL bigotry was passive.
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  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by TarlsQtr View Post
    No, I do not care. I await the day when he or anyone else does not feel the need to come out. They just live their life as they see fit and it does not even get people's attention. Some think that is homophobic, but oh well.
    You await the day, while simultaneously pretending that it's already here.

    This highlights the argument I was having with your "nothingburger" statement. The day is NOT here, as you inadvertently let slip. But moments like these, take us another step closer as a society.

    You talk about how you don't hear people yelling the N word at athletes at a Basketball game. You seem to recognize Jackie Robinson's contributions in getting us to that point. But how many people yell the F word at an athlete? Heck, Coaches and players still get caught doing it all the time. How can you not recognize the direction Sam's actions should take us? How can you not see the parallels to Jackie (even though the circumstances of society are drastically different)?

    Sam's actions, and the media circus around it, will have an impact on getting us to THAT day... that day you supposedly are "awaiting".


    (i hope you weren't insinuating that i think you are homophobic?)
    Last edited by NeilPatrickBanana; 02-11-2014 at 10:21 AM.
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  6. #16
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    Good stuff, even needing to have the conversation, means that as a society we truly aren't there yet. We aren't there on a lot of issues, and I don't know that we ever will be. When I posted the link I also didn't mean to infer the test would be an accurate measure of racist beliefs, or any of the other tests on that page, just to show that our subconscious biases can often be different than our beliefs.

    On a side note, while I do not agree with the reaction that Smart had at the game, I also don't think that Orr is a 100% innocent party, he's had an issue or two in the past apparently, nothing that crosses the line he allegedly crossed this weekend, but suffice it to say I don't think he's the nicest guy in the room. While you can't touch a fan, in the end it wasn't a punch, he didn't even knock him down. Ron Artest would call Smart a sissy.
    Quote Originally Posted by questforSB7 View Post
    And I have EVERY Steelers game on tape going back 20 years BEFORE Terry Bradshaw even picked up a football.

  7. #17
    SA's #1 Pirates Fan Tetris Champion Black@Gold Forever32's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NeilPatrickBanana View Post
    So, your argument against comparing the first Black player in Baseball to the first openly Gay Athlete in a major american sport.... is that the Black person was subjected to WORSE bigotry than the Gay person will be subjected to? That's really your argument to why this isn't a big deal? A Non Story? Really, a non story???

    "I don't think football is ready for it just yet. In the coming decade or two, it's going to be acceptable, but at this point in time it's still a man's man game. To call somebody a [gay slur] is still so commonplace. It'd chemically imbalance an NFL locker room and meeting room."


    yea, sounds like it'll be smooth sailing for Sam..

    Hey, how many rounds will he fall because of this?
    How many teams will not draft him entirely because he's gay?

    It's a big deal because it's a first step in a process.
    It's a big deal because it will have a cultural/societal impact long term, breaking down barriers of bigotry/hate.

    To call it a non-story is an indicator of how society tries to turn a blind eye.
    Again comparing Michael Sam or Jason Collins to Jackie Robinson is ridiculous........Its a non-story to me since I don't care if Sam is gay....If the Steelers drafted him all I care about if Sam can play or not.........

    Jackie received death threats on a daily basis, disgusting taunts by players, fans, even managers across the National League in 1947.......

    Jason Collions was praised and had over-whelming support for the most part and so will Sam....Of course there will be anti-gay people in society but Sam won't even come close to what Jackie went through.....By the way I'm not the one comparing Sam to Jackie Robinson...I have just heard others compare him to Jackie....Just like when Jason Collins came out......

    I also bet Sam will get drafted and will within the first four rounds of the NFL draft.......

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by NeilPatrickBanana View Post
    what do you base this on? What experience are you drawing from? What history? really... explain further.
    Sure. Missouri. How did they respond? If "homophobia kills", where are all of the stonings in the most masculine organization in the world, the US Military?

    You seem to be stuck in the 1980's. Almost no one under 50 gives a damn if you are gay or straight. The most he will probably be subjected to is some jokes by teammates. If, by chance, they do go over the line, they will be dealt with severely.

    you seem confused about what we are arguing about. here's a reminder of your comments, the one to which I was arguing with... "To me, this story is a nothingburger. I do not care one bit and wish making a big deal of this stuff would go away. The guy deserves respect just like anyone else, no more or less. Unfortunately, in an attempt by the press to do a hagiography, he will never be known as NFL player Michael Sam. He will be known as "first outwardly gay NFL player Michael Sam." IMO, that is as bad as bashing the guy for being gay."
    I am not confused at all. All conversations of any length evolve as we make points and counterpoints. You are surely intelligent enough to know that.

    As far as the above point, I am sorry that you cannot see how sad it is that someone will be forever known for one small aspect of their overall person. Let's not treat people like a "black" man or a "gay" man but as a "man." It is silly (and passively racist, to use your phrase) that he is NOW being treated differently than he was last week. He will never be judged as a football player but instead a "gay" football player. It is wrong even when, like this case, it is in the form of hagiographies by the press rather than gay bashing.

    you're just being dumb now... but i am interested in what the "because" was going to be... looks like you came up with nothing, and went with the dumb "sofas" comment.
    What is "dumb" is comparing the treatment this kid is getting to Jackie Robinson. You ARE comparing apples to sofas.

    Was Jackie held as property, chained in a dungeon? Was he bull whipped? Oh... see, his plight was no big deal when compared to the slaves who came before him.... yea, that's how stupid your argument sounds.
    Now THAT'S dumb. Sam's plight, as HE tells it, is that he came out to his teammates last August and had their full support. Oh, the horror! Go to CBSSports.com or ESPN. See ANYTHING negative being written about him? Did Robert Kraft call him a "fa^" or did he say the Pats would love him if he helps the team? As I said before, you (and the press) have written the story before it unfolds. His draft stock will fall, his NFL teammates will treat him like crap, etc. Y'all will be looking for every perceived slight and an excuse to blame homophobes for every little failure of his. You are already looking for the excuses.

    we can't compare a minority breaking a barrier within sports, to any previous athlete breaking a sports a barrier, unless the parallels are historically identical and under identical circumstances??? nonsense. the truth, is that those of your persuasion have to dismiss the parallels, because of how stupid it makes you look.
    Just curious. What is my "persuasion?"

    The rest is a straw man. I never said any such thing. Your SPECIFIC analogy was dumb. I did not say one could never do that. If you compared Billie Jean King to Jackie, it would have been far more relevant.

    it's like listening to Rand Paul discuss the civil rights act... you can point to the present and make your argument, but you can't say the same thing about the past, as history has only sided with one side of the argument in that case. that's why you need to dismiss the OBVIOUS comparison to Robinson, because history has already decided. And your stuck trying to dismiss the comparison with terrible arguments like, "Jackie received death threats in the mail, i saw it in that movie.... what, No, Twitter is totally different than something arriving in your mail box."
    Uh, it IS different, which is why you never addressed whether Ann Coulter (who receives tons of death threats) is a Civil Rights hero. People say stupid things under the cloak of internet anonymity. Without getting specific because it is no one else's business unless you want it to be, did you go to the police a few weeks ago? I bet not.

    So Jackie receives death threats by mail, and someone else receives them via this generations mode of communication. there's no difference. You're getting denser by the argument
    See directly above.

    How many people under 50 own football teams?
    LOL, Yeah, but while you are implying that Sam will drop or fall out of the draft because some/all 32 NFL owners are homophobes, you claim you are not writing anyone's story before it happens.

    This is still a story of an individual breaking down a barrier, I'm living in the present where no male athlete in a major professional sport has come out at the beginning of his career. You want to pretend we live in a world where that isn't a big deal, and that is passive bigotry.
    If you say so, it must be true.

    Passive bigotry is pretending that inequality doesn't exist and erecting philosophy as the barrier to dealing with it.
    Please, Carnac, list all of the inequalities Sam will go through as an NFL football player. Please be specific so that we have it for the record.

    Im not pushing anyone forward, nor do i need to push anyone forward.
    Of course you are. You have created an enormous obstacle where none has yet been proven to exist and pushed him over it.

    I am recognizing what is happening in the world, you don't want those things recognized. clearly, you are uncomfortable with them.
    What "things" are we talking about?

    hagiography is a keystone word for those who make your argument.
    Or it is an apt descriptor of what you (and others) have written about a guy who has yet to suffer one iota for coming out.

    I asked questions.
    That's weak. Implying that there was no point to your questions is some sorry "NYCSteelerfan" type sh!t.

    You will hide behind your philosophy, and I'll speculate based on history/reality.
    Reality-He came out to his team and got 100 percent support according to him. The press has been writing nothing but hagiographies rather than bashing. Robert Kraft said the Pats would take him if they felt he could help the team. Goodell issued a statement in support. The US Military has allowed gay soldiers for almost three years without major incidents. I can see how based on "reality" and "history", you would expect some pretty evil sh!t coming down the pike.

    you should work on your own reading comprehension. I didn't say ALL bigotry was passive.
    When people feel free enough in a society to perpetrate the bigotry you see coming openly, there is no need for passive bigotry. The KKK did not lynch people and then commit "passive bigotry" in between lynchings. They were all in.
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  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by NeilPatrickBanana View Post
    You await the day, while simultaneously pretending that it's already here.
    Please, show where I am "pretending that it's already here." Quote me for the record. My heavens. You make no sense. My entire point was that it is highly unfortunate that we are not at a point where someone can just live their life openly without feeling the need to "come out".

    You talk about how you don't hear people yelling the N word at athletes at a Basketball game.
    Actually, what I said was that no photogs, fans, or security heard Orr yell it at Smart. I have heard it.

    You seem to recognize Jackie Robinson's contributions in getting us to that point. But how many people yell the F word at an athlete? Heck, Coaches and players still get caught doing it all the time. How can you not recognize the direction Sam's actions should take us? How can you not see the parallels to Jackie (even though the circumstances of society are drastically different)?
    "The F word" has been seen as something you do not say for a long time now. Not sure what Sam had to do with that.

    Sam's actions, and the media circus around it, will have an impact on getting us to THAT day... that day you supposedly are "awaiting".
    (i hope you weren't insinuating that i think you are homophobic?)
    So let me see. People of my "persuasion." I am a "passive bigot". The day I am "supposedly" awaiting. Are you insulting just my intelligence or the intelligence of every poster here?

    Oh, wait. You are just "asking questions." lol

    Neil, you are a bright guy. At least give me (and everyone else here) a smidgen of credit as well for seeing what you are saying.

    This conversation is boring me. I willingly give you the last word. Feel free to declare victory as you are wont to do and if you want to talk football, let me know.
    "If I could start my life all over again, I would be a professional football player, and you damn well better believe I would be a Pittsburgh Steeler." -Jack Lambert

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by TarlsQtr View Post
    Sure. Missouri. How did they respond? If "homophobia kills", where are all of the stonings in the most masculine organization in the world, the US Military?
    Military assaults are up dramatically since the repeal of DADT



    You seem to be stuck in the 1980's. Almost no one under 50 gives a damn if you are gay or straight. The most he will probably be subjected to is some jokes by teammates. If, by chance, they do go over the line, they will be dealt with severely.
    That's a completely laughable statement. It indicates you are more than willing to create a reality (that doesn't exist) to make your philosophy more acceptable.


    I am not confused at all. All conversations of any length evolve as we make points and counterpoints. You are surely intelligent enough to know that.
    No. Our conversation has not evolved. You, instead, continue to try to shift the conversation onto grounds where your position is more comfortable.

    As far as the above point, I am sorry that you cannot see how sad it is that someone will be forever known for one small aspect of their overall person. Let's not treat people like a "black" man or a "gay" man but as a "man." It is silly (and passively racist, to use your phrase) that he is NOW being treated differently than he was last week. He will never be judged as a football player but instead a "gay" football player. It is wrong even when, like this case, it is in the form of hagiographies by the press rather than gay bashing.
    We aren't there yet. Others have to pave the way, for everyone to be treated on equal footing. Sam is the next in line in paving that long road.



    What is "dumb" is comparing the treatment this kid is getting to Jackie Robinson. You ARE comparing apples to sofas.
    I never compared the treatement, you did.... and you did it to avoid the parallels between 2 men whose actions (potentially) assisted in moving society forward in.



    Now THAT'S dumb. Sam's plight, as HE tells it, is that he came out to his teammates last August and had their full support. Oh, the horror! Go to CBSSports.com or ESPN. See ANYTHING negative being written about him? Did Robert Kraft call him a "fa^" or did he say the Pats would love him if he helps the team? As I said before, you (and the press) have written the story before it unfolds. His draft stock will fall, his NFL teammates will treat him like crap, etc. Y'all will be looking for every perceived slight and an excuse to blame homophobes for every little failure of his. You are already looking for the excuses.
    Jackie Robinson had the full support of Owner Branch Rickey.

    Again, you are attempting to shift the conversation to something else.

    My position is with regards to the importance of the story, and how it will hopefully move society forward. You don't want to have that conversation and have erected ridiculous barriers to having it i.e "No one under 50 cares about sexual orientation".


    The rest is a straw man. I never said any such thing. Your SPECIFIC analogy was dumb. I did not say one could never do that. If you compared Billie Jean King to Jackie, it would have been far more relevant.
    The level of hate that exists at any particular time, does not change the comparison.


    Uh, it IS different, which is why you never addressed whether Ann Coulter (who receives tons of death threats) is a Civil Rights hero. People say stupid things under the cloak of internet anonymity. Without getting specific because it is no one else's business unless you want it to be, did you go to the police a few weeks ago? I bet not.
    I thought the difference between who you are and the things you say/do was evident, and you were just being silly with your Coulter comparison. Now I see that you were serious... and just have to shake my head.










    Reality-He came out to his team and got 100 percent support according to him. The press has been writing nothing but hagiographies rather than bashing. Robert Kraft said the Pats would take him if they felt he could help the team. Goodell issued a statement in support. The US Military has allowed gay soldiers for almost three years without major incidents. I can see how based on "reality" and "history", you would expect some pretty evil sh!t coming down the pike.
    wrong

    When people feel free enough in a society to perpetrate the bigotry you see coming openly, there is no need for passive bigotry. The KKK did not lynch people and then commit "passive bigotry" in between lynchings. They were all in.
    Society has evolved. Active bigotry is no where near the level of 60 years ago. Just like 60 years ago, it was nowhere near the level of 100 years before that.
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