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Thread: Steelers "ways" running on fumes only.

          
   
   
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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by ice cream glove View Post
    They chocked for 2 reasons: no franchise QB and scared head coaching. Cowher chocked more than anyone when it came to play off games. He thought he could just rush the ball and play D and that would be enough to win. It never was enough when it came to playing the good teams, and he was just clueless. Even when they won the AFC in 1995, they just BARELY beat a Colts team, missing so many of their key players (They were missing best RB in the league in Faulk, their best WR, their best LB, etc.) And Pgh barely beat them, showing you just how bad Cowher was in championship games. He coached scared.

    That being said, the Cowher/Donnahoe era did draft better than the current clowns. You left the following off your list of players drafted in the Cowher era.

    1 11 Leon Searcy T Miami (Fla.)
    2 38 Levon Kirkland LB Clemson
    3 67 Joel Steed NT Colorado
    7 179 Russ Campbell TE Kansas State
    7 188 Scottie Graham FB Ohio State
    8 203 Darren Perry FS Penn State

    1 23 Deon Figures CB Colorado
    2 44 Chad Brown ILB Colorado
    3 76 Andre Hastings WR Georgia
    4 108 Kevin Henry DE Mississippi State

    1 17 Charles Johnson WR Colorado
    2 50 Brentson Buckner DE Clemson
    3 88 Jason Gildon LB Oklahoma State
    3 91 Bam Morris RB Texas Tech
    4 122 Ta'ase Faumui DE Hawaii
    5 140 Myron Bell SAF Michigan State

    1 26 Alan Faneca G Louisiana State
    2 41 Jeremy Staat DE Arizona State
    3 66 Chris Conrad T Fresno State
    3 92 Hines Ward WR Georgia
    4 117 Deshea Townsend DB Alabama
    4 123 Carlos King RB North Carolina State
    5 137 Jason Simmons DB Arizona State
    6 178 Chris Fuamatu-Ma'afala RB Utah

    1 30 Kendall Simmons G Auburn
    2 62 Antwaan Randle El WR Indiana
    3 94 Chris Hope DB Florida State
    4 128 Larry Foote ILB Michigan
    5 166 Verron Haynes RB Georgia
    6 202 Lee Mays WR Texas-El Paso
    7 212 LaVar Glover CB Cincinnati
    7 242 Brett Keisel DE Brigham Young

    Add in that they drafted Ben, Troy, Hampton, Ike, Heath Miller, and no way can you say that the BC/TD era didn't draft better than the current car full of clowns. No way. No how. Not even close. Tomlin has won with BC's players. Now that they are going away, we will see what we are left with. Unless they start kicking @ss, they are in trouble.
    Ben, Troy, Hampton, Ike, Heath were Colbert picks. Donahue was fired in 1999.

    Thanks for adding Deon Figures to the list of 1st round busts. So Donahue/Cowher drafted Figures, Charles Johnson, Bruener, Stephens and Chad Scott in the first round from 1993-97. It's almost impossible to bust in the 1st round 5 straight years. Well....Donahue/Cowher proved it's not.

    Bottom line, 25-28 teams in the NFL would love the combination of Colbert/Tomlin. Just ask a Chiefs fan, Cowboy fan, Dolphins fan etc, etc, etc............................................... .......................etc.

    The grass isn't always greener on the other side.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg3835 View Post
    Ben, Troy, Hampton, Ike, Heath were Colbert picks. Donahue was fired in 1999.

    Thanks for adding Deon Figures to the list of 1st round busts. So Donahue/Cowher drafted Figures, Charles Johnson, Bruener, Stephens and Chad Scott in the first round from 1993-97. It's almost impossible to bust in the 1st round 5 straight years. Well....Donahue/Cowher proved it's not.

    Bottom line, 25-28 teams in the NFL would love the combination of Colbert/Tomlin. Just ask a Chiefs fan, Cowboy fan, Dolphins fan etc, etc, etc............................................... .......................etc.

    The grass isn't always greener on the other side.
    When did I ever say the grass was greener on the other side of the fence? That is a straw man argument. What I _DID_ illuminate what that our drafts have been crappy the last 5-6 years. And, just pointing out the first round picks ONLY from the Cowher era is hardly a complete analysis; you must take the drafts in totality in order to properly evaluate them. If you look at the total collection of talent from the draft in the BC era compared to the MT era, and you think MT era has gathered the superior talent, then, well, let's just agree to disagree. BC era brought us Big Ben, Troy, Ike, Steed, Kirkland, Steed, Perry, Figures (who was good as a rookie and then got hurt and was never the same), Chad Brown, Hastings, Kevin Henry, Bam Morris, Myron Bell, Earl Holmes, Roye, Faneca, Hines Ward, Townsend, Joey Porter, Marvel Smith, Hampton, Kendrell Bell (who was awesome as a rookie and then just fell apart).

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by ice cream glove View Post
    When did I ever say the grass was greener on the other side of the fence? That is a straw man argument. What I _DID_ illuminate what that our drafts have been crappy the last 5-6 years. And, just pointing out the first round picks ONLY from the Cowher era is hardly a complete analysis; you must take the drafts in totality in order to properly evaluate them. If you look at the total collection of talent from the draft in the BC era compared to the MT era, and you think MT era has gathered the superior talent, then, well, let's just agree to disagree. BC era brought us Big Ben, Troy, Ike, Steed, Kirkland, Steed, Perry, Figures (who was good as a rookie and then got hurt and was never the same), Chad Brown, Hastings, Kevin Henry, Bam Morris, Myron Bell, Earl Holmes, Roye, Faneca, Hines Ward, Townsend, Joey Porter, Marvel Smith, Hampton, Kendrell Bell (who was awesome as a rookie and then just fell apart).
    This is much more of a Colbert vs Donahue debate in my mind. Cowher and Tomlin are/were in the room but Colbert and Omar Khan are running the show. The head coach can pound his fist on the table all he wants and Colbert will listen but in the end Colbert is buying the groceries.
    The Steelers thought so much of Donahue drafts that the kicked him to the curb in 1999. Colbert has done a very good/great job since he has been GM. His last couple of drafts are TBD. You really can't evaluate a draft class until 4 years later when they are due their second pro contract. Keenan Lewis is a great example, 3 years of nothing then starts his 4th year and earns himself a 25 million dollar contract. Give Cortez Allen, Worilds, Ziggy, Heyward, DeCastro, Adams, Sanders that same chance.maybe they are players maybe they will be busts. Lets just wait to see what they will become before we label them either way.

  4. #54
    2nd String FlatsSteeler's Avatar
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    My point is/was you can pick all of the talented players you want if you don't teach, train, develop or PLAY them they will never amount to much, kinda like buying a new Cadillac then not putting gas in it to run you can't blame the salesman or the Cadillac it's the driver .......Again my Point is, it takes more than picking players in the draft to make a successful program......Of course you will have some BUSTs some Character problems, some better than other studs but in general anyone drafted into the NFL can play the game, but the Coaches have to be able to get them to the next level......From what I see the Steelers currently lack in that area to include conditioning, and playing time......

  5. #55
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    Oh God why did the name Chad Scott come up and what a 1st rd bust. Cowher kept starting him for years because he wouldn't admit to himself he was a wasted pick. I can't count how many times a game he would get burnt. He makes William Gay look like a superstar compared to him.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlatsSteeler View Post
    My point is/was you can pick all of the talented players you want if you don't teach, train, develop or PLAY them they will never amount to much, kinda like buying a new Cadillac then not putting gas in it to run you can't blame the salesman or the Cadillac it's the driver .......Again my Point is, it takes more than picking players in the draft to make a successful program......Of course you will have some BUSTs some Character problems, some better than other studs but in general anyone drafted into the NFL can play the game, but the Coaches have to be able to get them to the next level......From what I see the Steelers currently lack in that area to include conditioning, and playing time......
    I actually agree with most everything you wrote. But part of our problem is when it takes FOUR years to realize if a player is any good or not. That is a major problem. You get a whole ONE year out of a player before he is a free agent. That sucks. What a waste, and Pgh does this far too often. Also, my other point is that if we draft players who never are any good on any team, it was a bad draft pick period. If the problem was only coaching and conditioning, then they player would likely go on to have success else where, and there are very few instances of that happening. Very few. But there IS a conditioning problem with this team, as well as an over all discipline issue, and that is on Tomlin. The head coach needs to take control of the discipline area, and, as of last year, it was obvious that Tomlin was FAIL in that area. Players were over weight (Woodley, Colon), too many sloppy fumbles, dropped balls and mental mistake penalties. Those are all signs of poor discipline. Tomlin, you really F'd that up last season. It better change now. I hope Art 2 put his wing tip up Tomlin's rear end.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by ice cream glove View Post
    I actually agree with most everything you wrote. But part of our problem is when it takes FOUR years to realize if a player is any good or not. That is a major problem. You get a whole ONE year out of a player before he is a free agent. That sucks. What a waste, and Pgh does this far too often. Also, my other point is that if we draft players who never are any good on any team, it was a bad draft pick period. If the problem was only coaching and conditioning, then they player would likely go on to have success else where, and there are very few instances of that happening. Very few. But there IS a conditioning problem with this team, as well as an over all discipline issue, and that is on Tomlin. The head coach needs to take control of the discipline area, and, as of last year, it was obvious that Tomlin was FAIL in that area. Players were over weight (Woodley, Colon), too many sloppy fumbles, dropped balls and mental mistake penalties. Those are all signs of poor discipline. Tomlin, you really F'd that up last season. It better change now. I hope Art 2 put his wing tip up Tomlin's rear end.
    We watched his smooth discipline in action with Mendy... I hope thats not his normal idea of player development and control...
    I thought the Bengals always had bad team discipline.. were getting there with tomlin....

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by BubbyBlister View Post
    Oh God why did the name Chad Scott come up and what a 1st rd bust. Cowher kept starting him for years because he wouldn't admit to himself he was a wasted pick. I can't count how many times a game he would get burnt. He makes William Gay look like a superstar compared to him.
    I so agree with you. I have as much angry memories for Cowher as I do good ones. I hated his ego, weak confidence (even though it manifests itself as strong confidence) that BC had to manage, with things such as keeping players in the starting line up either because of their high draft pick status, or a new, big contract. That is one thing I admire about Belichick: if a player isn't cutting it, regardless of how high the draft pick, or a recent big contract, he still always does the correct thing and benches or cuts the player if it turns out he was wrong about them. Cowher constantly would keep players starting who didn't deserve it based on his decision to draft them in the first round or give them a big contract. It just ticked me off. Among those he refused to admit were over-valued with either high draft pick or big new contract were:

    - Chad Scott
    - Kordell Stewart
    - Jason Gildon
    - Levon Kirkland - hell of a player but just got too fat to move but Cowher still kept him as a starter.
    - Dewayne Washington - just sucked
    - Kendell Simmons- never knew what was even average with this guy and they not only drafted in the first round but gave him a 2nd big contract. That is madness.

    I am starting to see some of the same with Tomlin to be honest. Old vets are allowed to play forever even if they are excessively overweight. I know you need a big boy at NT, but Hampton could apply for - and receive - a handicap parking pass because walking is very difficult for him. Just walking. And yet, there he was, on the field, even though McClendon had so much more play making ability.

  9. #59
    2nd String BubbyBlister's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ice cream glove View Post
    I so agree with you. I have as much angry memories for Cowher as I do good ones. I hated his ego, weak confidence (even though it manifests itself as strong confidence) that BC had to manage, with things such as keeping players in the starting line up either because of their high draft pick status, or a new, big contract. That is one thing I admire about Belichick: if a player isn't cutting it, regardless of how high the draft pick, or a recent big contract, he still always does the correct thing and benches or cuts the player if it turns out he was wrong about them. Cowher constantly would keep players starting who didn't deserve it based on his decision to draft them in the first round or give them a big contract. It just ticked me off. Among those he refused to admit were over-valued with either high draft pick or big new contract were:

    - Chad Scott
    - Kordell Stewart
    - Jason Gildon
    - Levon Kirkland - hell of a player but just got too fat to move but Cowher still kept him as a starter.
    - Dewayne Washington - just sucked
    - Kendell Simmons- never knew what was even average with this guy and they not only drafted in the first round but gave him a 2nd big contract. That is madness.

    I am starting to see some of the same with Tomlin to be honest. Old vets are allowed to play forever even if they are excessively overweight. I know you need a big boy at NT, but Hampton could apply for - and receive - a handicap parking pass because walking is very difficult for him. Just walking. And yet, there he was, on the field, even though McClendon had so much more play making ability.
    Agree about Belichick and why he is probably the best coaching today. Also agree about Tomlin taking after Cowher of late with the older players. As for Jason Gildon yep he was another that showed nothing but continued to be a starter.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg3835 View Post
    This is much more of a Colbert vs Donahue debate in my mind. Cowher and Tomlin are/were in the room but Colbert and Omar Khan are running the show. The head coach can pound his fist on the table all he wants and Colbert will listen but in the end Colbert is buying the groceries.
    The Steelers thought so much of Donahue drafts that the kicked him to the curb in 1999. Colbert has done a very good/great job since he has been GM. His last couple of drafts are TBD. You really can't evaluate a draft class until 4 years later when they are due their second pro contract. Keenan Lewis is a great example, 3 years of nothing then starts his 4th year and earns himself a 25 million dollar contract. Give Cortez Allen, Worilds, Ziggy, Heyward, DeCastro, Adams, Sanders that same chance.maybe they are players maybe they will be busts. Lets just wait to see what they will become before we label them either way.
    Here is my problem with this: Unless someone knows, I have never seen anything that indicates who has how much decision making power when it comes to the draft. How much power did Cowher have? How much is the GM? How much is it a Rooney? They have been secretive in this area. And without knowing, it's impossible to say whether this is a TD-KC debate, or a 50-50 with the head coach, or is the owner calling the shots for at least the first round? I have no idea. I wish they would say, to be honest, so at least we would know who to blame or pay homage to.

    This is my best guess, and I admit, it's only a guess. I think as time went on, Cowher attained more and more decision making power in the draft. But Rooneys may feel they gave him a little too much power at one point. I think Tomlin came in, with less of the power, eventually gained more, but looking at their results lately, has lost a lot of his weight. I have heard, often, that Art 2 trumped Cowher on the Ben draft pick. Cowher, the knuck head that he is, wanted the OT, Andrews, who went to Philly and Art over-rode him. Don't know where that info. came from, but I have heard it several times.

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