2014 Draft Talk

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Originally Posted by NeilPatrickBanana

We were in the "top half", and lost 2 of the primary contributors to that (from a receiving standpoint). yes, a healthier(but older) Miller will help...

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Moore has been every bit the player that Cotch has (yes, in a more naturally prolific offense). Last season was a career one for Cotch as far as TDs go (half of his previous career total). He was steady and a good character guy in the locker room but far from irreplaceable. We could not run in the red zone, the Ds would clamp down on options 1 and 2 (AB/Heath), so Ben would go to 3. Moore can do that. As far as Sanders, I will start by saying that I have been saying all along that the criticisms of his drops are overstated. I am in the small minority, so this is not just Sanders hate. 700 yards and 6TDs is not out of the question for Wheaton if his routes and hands are as good as other players and coaches seemed to believe last season.

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My goal isn't to be in the top half....

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I get that but a lot of things can help the passing game. Ben not throwing turds the first few games. A continuation of the pass blocking in the second half of season. A running game that allows the threat of play action to AB or even DHB deep.

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a little?

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See above.

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it's a core with 1 great player and 1 good veteran #3/#4... that's all it is right now...

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I contend that Wheaton is the wild card. IF the coaches think he is =or>Sanders, it turns the corps into a workable unit (albeit one that could still use more depth). If not, you are right.

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Originally Posted by NeilPatrickBanana

There is a reason why WRs will make up the largest portion of pre-draft visits.

We are talking one with 1 of our first 2 picks... bet?

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No way. I am not even saying that we should not or will not draft WR 1 or 2, just that the theory the season is a complete waste if we do not draft a guy 1 or 2 is overstated. It is a sexier need but I am not sure it is a more critical need than DL, CB, or maybe even LB, especially when we are not going to get one of the 2 elite WRs in round 1.

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Originally Posted by TarlsQtr

Moore has been every bit the player that Cotch has (yes, in a more naturally prolific offense).

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giving caveats that nullify the original statement is cool...

regardless, Moore is a very different type of receiver than Cotchery... Moore is more a Randle El. He's going to work across the field, and occassionaly stretch the field... but he's not going to be squatting in soft zones as a possession 3rd down guy... and he's not going to be as effective in the red zone as Cotchery was.

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Last season was a career one for Cotch as far as TDs go (half of his previous career total). He was steady and a good character guy in the locker room but far from irreplaceable. We could not run in the red zone, the Ds would clamp down on options 1 and 2 (AB/Heath), so Ben would go to 3. Moore can do that.

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I disagree. Cotchery was great at being Ben's outlet.... Like you said, he was perfect being Ben's security blanket when options A and B were not available. Moore on the other hand has operated in a much different role, in a much different offense.

I like the Moore signing. I hope they use him properly. I hope he adapts to Ben's game. But those who think this is simply "1 vet out, new 1 vet in" are woefully underestimating the impact.

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As far as Sanders, I will start by saying that I have been saying all along that the criticisms of his drops are overstated. I am in the small minority, so this is not just Sanders hate. 700 yards and 6TDs is not out of the question for Wheaton if his routes and hands are as good as other players and coaches seemed to believe last season.

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this is becoming a theme for you.

I'll take the under on that 700/6 bet... it's mostly just wishful thinking on behalf of the position you've chosen.

I was very high on Wheaton.
4th overall WR in a "top 5 by position" thread
30th overall player in preliminary "big board" thread
44th overall player in final "big board" thread

He looked like a lost dog last year... so, rather than homering it up... I'll go by what we've seen... and it was garbage. Ii want to contend for super bowls in the final 5-6 seasons of Ben's career. Giving him weapons is going to be the key. If Wheaton turns into a good #2, GREAT! But if he doesnt we'll have another guy to bank on.... if they both turn out, we'll have a potent offense...

And Wheaton doesn't really belong on the outside... he belongs in the slot... he is a shifty guy who has elite short area quickness and is explosive when the ball is in his hands.

We need a guy who can rotate the split end/flanker role with Brown, we need to put some danger on the outside, we need to spread the defense out more or we are going to get boxed too often

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I get that but a lot of things can help the passing game. Ben not throwing turds the first few games. A continuation of the pass blocking in the second half of season. A running game that allows the threat of play action to AB or even DHB deep.

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I totally agree.

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Originally Posted by NeilPatrickBanana

giving caveats that nullify the original statement is cool...

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LOL It "nullifies" nothing. It is recognizing a difference. Just as recognizing that AP had a better run blocking offensive line last season would not "nullify" a statement that AP is better than Bell.

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regardless, Moore is a very different type of receiver than Cotchery... Moore is more a Randle El. He's going to work across the field, and occassionaly stretch the field... but he's not going to be squatting in soft zones as a possession 3rd down guy... and he's not going to be as effective in the red zone as Cotchery was.

I disagree. Cotchery was great at being Ben's outlet.... Like you said, he was perfect being Ben's security blanket when options A and B were not available. Moore on the other hand has operated in a much different role, in a much different offense.

I like the Moore signing. I hope they use him properly. I hope he adapts to Ben's game. But those who think this is simply "1 vet out, new 1 vet in" are woefully underestimating the impact.

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No one is saying Moore will be used in the same way. OCs adapt to the talent they have and I reject that Moore cannot be used effectively in the red zone.

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this is becoming a theme for you.

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Yes, I sure hope that if things are overstated it is a "theme" of mine. Just as the criticism of Tomlin has been "overstated." Just as the criticism of Colbert has been "overstated." Just as the criticism of Ben (and at times praise) has been "overstated." Just as the criticism of Haley was "overstated." Is it your contention that people should not point that out? Or just me? And my statement about Sanders was a mild compliment to him in a statement where I said he was replaceable. Bringing up data that undermines your own argument is called honesty. For the life of me I cannot figure out what you have to complain about there.

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I'll take the under on that 700/6 bet... it's mostly just wishful thinking on behalf of the position you've chosen.

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Feel free.

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He looked like a lost dog last year... so, rather than homering it up... I'll go by what we've seen... and it was garbage. Ii want to contend for super bowls in the final 5-6 seasons of Ben's career. Giving him weapons is going to be the key. If Wheaton turns into a good #2, GREAT! But if he doesnt we'll have another guy to bank on.... if they both turn out, we'll have a potent offense...

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Not sure what you evaluated him as a "dog" on last season. He hardly played, missing 4 games for finger injuries and hardly saw the field in others. It is like evaluating Spence on the basis of preseason games a couple of seasons ago.

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And Wheaton doesn't really belong on the outside... he belongs in the slot... he is a shifty guy who has elite short area quickness and is explosive when the ball is in his hands.

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Agreed.

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We need a guy who can rotate the split end/flanker role with Brown, we need to put some danger on the outside, we need to spread the defense out more or we are going to get boxed too often

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I do not even disagree with that. I just do not see a lost cause of a season if we do not draft a guy 1-2.

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Originally Posted by TarlsQtr

LOL It "nullifies" nothing. It is recognizing a difference. Just as recognizing that AP had a better run blocking offensive line last season would not "nullify" a statement that AP is better than Bell.

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You aren't stating a difference (AP better than Bell)... you are making a comparison (Moore=Cotch... oh god, are we going to debate the = sign now?), and removing the tangible elements (the offenses they are in)

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No one is saying Moore will be used in the same way. OCs adapt to the talent they have and I reject that Moore cannot be used effectively in the red zone.

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you stated WHAT Cotchery did in this offense... and then said "Moore can do that."

Can't wait for your tangent on this one...

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Yes, I sure hope that if things are overstated it is a "theme" of mine. Just as the criticism of Tomlin has been "overstated." Just as the criticism of Colbert has been "overstated." Just as the criticism of Ben (and at times praise) has been "overstated." Just as the criticism of Haley was "overstated." Is it your contention that people should not point that out? Or just me? And my statement about Sanders was a mild compliment to him in a statement where I said he was replaceable. Bringing up data that undermines your own argument is called honesty. For the life of me I cannot figure out what you have to complain about there.

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I wasn't complaining about anything
sidebar: there is a difference between the over stated rantings against the intangible elements of coaches/GMs... verse the on field abilities of athletes. lets save that for another time.

What will be hard, is creating a consistently dangerous offense with Wheaton and Moore playing big roles in it... and forcing one of them to the outside...

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Not sure what you evaluated him as a "dog" on last season. He hardly played, missing 4 games for finger injuries and hardly saw the field in others. It is like evaluating Spence on the basis of preseason games a couple of seasons ago.

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I evaluated him on the 153 offensive snaps he took via the all-22 film i subscribe to. he looked like a "lost dog"... his routes were awful, he'd get into the body because he didn't know how to read a DBs hips. He was both an easy cover and a bad outlet.

There's a reason why his snap count dropped so drastically... and it's not because of injury (you can look at per game snap count). It's because he was bad. He was a hinderance.

Do I believe in Wheaton? Yes. I think he has skill. But we are talking about a premier position that should be among the deepest positions on a contenders team... if I had a crystal ball that said Wheaton would hit his FULL potential (in my eyes a YAC dangerous slot monster), I'm STILL all over a WR in the 1st 2 rounds that can address the red zone, edge, and deep 3rds from a Flanker or Split End position - Brown is excellent in either role opposite the new guy on the outside)

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I do not even disagree with that. I just do not see a lost cause of a season if we do not draft a guy 1-2.

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I don't see a lost cause season... but I would see a huge missed oppportunity (deep WR class).

It's not about this season... it's about the next 5.

Right now, there is ZERO reason to be excited about Wheaton. There's just homerism or hope... like there was for Sweed's 2nd year, or Willie Reid's 2nd year...

we can believe in Wheaton... but we shouldnt bet on it so heavily

Was going to say this was the longest running thread without people comparing phalluses but hey, wonders never cease, so....RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE

Steelers using an official visit on Sentreal Henderson...interesting

Really? hmm. They are doing their due dilligence