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Blitzburghpete
05-24-2007, 04:39 AM
Guys this seems to be a hot topic at the moment. I hold no bones about that i think powerr football is the way to go. Before i go any further read this. This is an extract from the book
"Next man up" by John Feinstein. It's a behind the scenes look at life in the nfl and in this case from the Ravens during 2004.

"halftime the score is Steelers 10- 7 Ravens"

"The Steelers seemed to sense that the ravens were on the ropes. They came out the secoind half and put together a long, methodical drive, pounding away on the ground against a defence that wasn't accustomed to being pounded. After Roethlisberger opened the drive with a 7 yard completetion to hines ward, the steelers ran the ball on twelve consecutive plays. Bettis all 260 lbs of him hurtled through the line three straight times. Then Verron Haynes, normally a 3rd string back came in and picked up 28 yards on 4 carries of his own. Back came Bettis to pick up 6 to the ravens 9. The defence tried to clamp down, forcing a 4th and 1 from the 9. Steelers HC Bill Cowher didn't want a field goal, he sensed the kill. He went for it on 4th down and unlike the first half when he had tried to throw the ball on a 4th down, he sent Ben 6 foot 4 241 lbs straight up the middle. He picked up 2 yards and the first down at the 7. Two more Bettis runs put the ball ont the 2. Then Ben rolled left on play action and found TE J Tuman wide open in the back of the end zone for the touchdown.

The drive had taken 8.34 and the lead was now 17-7. Beyond that the drive had taken all the swagger out of the defence. The steelers had no fear of Lewis ( ray lewis mlb ) they were running the ball right at him. If someone had suggested to the defence that anyone could run the ball 12 straight times on them on a single drive, he would have been laughed out of the room. But that was exactly what had happened."

Good stuff eh? What's my point. With the higlighted parts do you think anything other than a power running game would have had the same effect on the Ravens? My point is a 3 yards and dust running game, if succesful, does more than chew the clock up so the opposing team has less time to score back against you, wear the opposing dee out, keeps your dee fresh, but it phycologically demolishes oppnents as well. It can't be measured but after reading this book this is a HUGE factor to teams and players that we don't see for players who think and have to believe they are the best. This game was crucial for the ravens as their season was on the line in that very game. Only a power running game could have done this to them, nothing else.

What i'm getting at is, forget the personnel we have at the moment ie Parker, find supporters of other teams and ask them if they face the steelers what type of offence would they fear most.

A power running eat the clock wear them down offence?
or a finese offence?


:helmet::helmet::helmet::helmet::helmet::helmet::h elmet:

SteelersWoman
05-24-2007, 08:27 AM
I agree that the thought of Pittsburgh not being considered strictly a grind 'em out type of team is a bit disconcerting. And as long as you have the right personel, it can help you control the clock and win a lot of games. But for whatever reason, a grind 'em out big power back didn't seem to even factor into the direction that we appear to be headed in now.

What's helped me deal with NOT takin a big back in the draft is this--I used to think of Indy as "soft"--basically it was either done in the air, or it wasn't done at all. But watchin their last few games, I began to see a shift of some sort...something magical happen--and I knew it when I saw it.

Before those last few, I'd have went with the Bears to win the big one--but when I saw that shift happen--they tightened up the O-line, they began to be able to run it pretty much whenever they chose, Peyton was takin what the other D was givin him thru the air, and (to my shock and amazement I might add) they seemed to get TOUGH as a team--and I was thinkin "This is NOT Indy's style". But they wore it well! I changed my mind and went with Indy to win it--because at the end, they had the right blend goin on.

What I'm sayin is, (if done RIGHT) you can mess with the other team's head in many ways--just like Indy did. If the other team KNOWS you can throw on them (short AND long) AND run on them whenever you choose, that's gonna affect them just as much. It's GOT to, because they're gonna know you can do it however you want, and there's not a darn thing they can do to stop ya. It even affected the big bad Bears.

I realize this is just my own opinion, and I'm sure many will disagree--I just know what I saw happen, and know that WE could do the right mix even better than Indy--because we're already a tougher team than they'd ever be. We just need to take the best of OUR traits--mix it with the best of THEIRS and dang--we'd be a sight to behold!

I can imagine it now--the fear in the heart of other teams when they know the "Hit 'em/stop 'em hard, get what you can get on the ground, throw and take what you can get thru the air, sack their QB Steelers" roll into town. So I just think we can do a mix of power and (if you will) finesse--and if we do it RIGHT, the word "finesse" won't ever be used to describe us in any way :D

25MVPKing
05-24-2007, 10:22 AM
To me, power and finesse are not mutally exclusive.

Willie Parker is power and finesse.
Hines Ward is power and finesse.
Ben Roethlisberger is power and finesse.
Heath Miller is power and finesse.
Troy Polamalu is power and finesse.

Those four are just the first four that came to mind, but the point is: not only are power and finesse qualities that can be found in the same players and team... we have the personnel to run both style games.

Power and finesse are both extremely important and in any given situation, the Steelers can use the one that will benefit them the most. :2cents:

Blitzburghpete
05-24-2007, 11:25 AM
Steeler woman - Understand what your saying about Indy but as good as ben is he ain't no Peyton Manning. Only Peyton can do what he does and mess with opposing dee's like that.

25MVPKing - Parkeer is NOT power, he's about speed. Sure he's tough, but one things for sure he's not a grind it out back. I don't want to get into the Parker debate as i said forget we have him for this conversation.

My point is, football is fundamentally a game where the players generally are trying to proove who is bigger stonger and quicker. I don't fear the steelers playing say the Broncos or the Pats ( i regard them as finese teams ) I fear us playing team's like the Bears or the Ravens or Jags. Teams that play Physical football.

I'll put it this way, i play rugby, and when i play what puts the fear in me is if the guy standing in front of me is bigger and stronger. I know i'm going to have a long day with him. ( fortunately i'm 6-1 and 250 lbs so this rarely happens ) If he's a little smaller but smarter i'm not worried at all.

Apply that to smash mouth football. Think of what you read in that 1st post of mine. The Ravens were only 10 points behind with loads of time to play yet they were sooo demoralized because of the way they were physically dominated by power football it was already over. Finese football would never have had that effect on them. They knew they couldn't do anything about the power so in essence "gave up". If they were playing a finese team for sure they wouldn't have thought that they would have thought lets be smart and we're still in it.

Thats my point. We have not got the players with the skill level of a Manning or Brady to dominate with Finese football, yet finese football is the route we now appear to be going and i think it's wrong and i fear for our team.

Steeler football is power it really is that simple. I think it is Madden who said something like football is all about if you hit the guy in front of you harder than the guy hits you. He's not talking about being clever ( finese ) he's talking about brute strength ( power )

:helmet::helmet::helmet::helmet::helmet:

25MVPKing
05-24-2007, 11:43 AM
If the Ravens are a power team and you take a lead (whether through finesse or power) shouldn't they have a harder, longer time getting back in it? Had we been playing the Colts or Pats, they could have had a touchdown in 2 minutes to diminish the lead. So in that case, doesn't it hurt us to not be able to score quickly?

We can't always take 8 minutes to score and I think where we're heading is a place that can score in 2 minutes or 12 minutes. The difference is who you're playing--what kind of offense and defense they have. I think versatility is something the Colts have that we're striving for.

As I said in a thread yesterday, the difference between the Colts rushing yards and our rushing yards is negligible. IMHO, I think being multi-faceted is something we can, should, and will do.

Thanks for letting me respond.

Blitzburghpete
05-24-2007, 12:15 PM
Had we been playing the Colts or Pats, they could have had a touchdown in 2 minutes to diminish the lead. So in that case, doesn't it hurt us to not be able to score quickly?

Fair point but the longer you pound the ball the easier it will get as the opposing dee will get worn out. A quick 2 minute drive and against our dee and it's still fit.

I fear if we try to be masters of both power and finese we'll be master of neither.

There is a time and a place for quick scoring, but if you hog the ball with time control offence you literlarly HAVE to make the other team catch up.


Example 1st quarter steelers 7 min drive fg,
colts 3 and out
steelers another 7 min drive td quarter over!!! Steel 10 - 0

Your literlarly not giving the chance to respond. This is how we did it to get a 15 -1 record.
Ok say we go finese

1 quart steelers 4 min drive td
colts 3 and out
steelers 5 min drive fg. Steel 10 - 0 but there is still time for the colts to respond. They don't have to change their game plan

Yeah we need the ability to score quick especially if we get behind - Enter Parker -

Ok if i was coach the balance would be 75% power 25% finese
I think we're going down a route of the opposite 25% power 75% finese.

Use parker in a single back formation but 3 wr's to spread the dee
Alternatively use pakrer in a pro set with Davenport in the FB/RB role.


But i digress because the point is the phycologocal effect power footbal has as shown from another teams point of view who haved played us.

IMO Power is the way to go.

SteelersWoman
05-24-2007, 12:58 PM
I don't think 25 or I either one disagree about the power being of great importance Pete. I just know that while the run run pass run has worked in many games--in others, it's been somewhat a drawback. We still need to be able to (as 25 said) get some points in a hurry if we need them during certain situations.

All we're tryin to say (in so many words) is that you can have (if it's worked for hard enough) the best of both worlds--you don't have to give up power to possess "finesse" when it's called for. You just are able to do what's needed WHEN needed--instead of being more one dimensional.

As far as Ben goes--I thought he did pretty well his first two seasons--and he still hasn't played half as long as Peyton.......When he's at his peak (like when he was a rookie) he can find his guy and deliver the ball pretty well! And now he's studyin films, gettin in more practice time with our receivers than he probably ever has before, and he's gaining experience all the way...I look for him to blow some socks off THIS year :D

And if we have a great offense AND defense, who's gonna stop us? :D

Of course "great" is the pivotal word--without doin everything great, it could just end up bein a real mess lol But I've got faith :D

Anyway--whether we like it or hate it--no big power back for us (at least this season). So we just have to make the best of it. I'm tryin to do that with hypin myself up to know that you CAN do both--as I said, Indy did it the last 3 or 4 games of last season--and (IMHO) it wasn't just Peyton winnin those games, it was the whole team. Cause the few games before that (when it WAS all on Peyton), they didn't do as well.

25MVPKing
05-24-2007, 05:28 PM
Thank you for clarifying SteelersWoman. I wasn't discounting the importance of the power game, but as SteelersWoman so eloquently put it, all power all the time is "one dimensional".

I wonder if Tomlin and Colbert didn't find a powerback they liked this year in the draft. Michael Bush is the one I hear everyone saying we should have gone after. Maybe they weren't convinced of his character or his ability to make 25 carries a game every week for 8 years. I don't know why they passed on him. I thought LenDale White would have been a good pickup in last year's draft, but (at least in his current situation) he's not turning heads. Maybe Tomlin and Colbert have prospects for '08 in their sights or have a lot of confidence in the personnel they already have (Davenport, Kuhn, Barlow, Russell).

Then again everyone in SteelerNation was calling for Posluzney and I think Timmons and Woodley will be beasts!
:towel: :towel: :towel:

DIESELMAN
05-24-2007, 07:22 PM
With offenses and defenses changing damn near every day, we have to be flexible in how we prepare for every team. It would be great to just stick to smashmouth but teams will prepare for that and will stop it. Another reason Cowher hardly had any success in the postseason, he stubbornly stuck to a certain game plan and wouldn't deviate from it. In this day and age in the NFL, teams have to be able to do a wide variety of things on offense.

Black@Gold Forever32
05-24-2007, 07:29 PM
With offenses and defenses changing damn near every day, we have to be flexible in how we prepare for every team. It would be great to just stick to smashmouth but teams will prepare for that and will stop it. Another reason Cowher hardly had any success in the postseason, he stubbornly stuck to a certain game plan and wouldn't deviate from it. In this day and age in the NFL, teams have to be able to do a wide variety of things on offense.

Great post Diesel and I agree totally. The NFL is adjust on the fly league anymore. The days of winning a championship by just pounding the pigskin down the throat of every team are over. Great point on Cowher's stubborness with his power running game in the post-season. Plus when you factor in coaches like Belichick who take away your strengths and force you to beat him with your weakness then you pretty much need a balanced attack in todays NFL.

Also Cowher finally won the Super Bowl with a speed RB as his starting RB and also by opening up the offense in the play-offs. Lets face it was Ben's arm in those three play-off games that got us to the Super Bowl rather then the RB's legs.

Plus looking at our current players on offense I think their talents fit a spread offense more then a true power offense especially Willie Parker.

DIESELMAN
05-24-2007, 07:38 PM
Great post Diesel and I agree totally. The NFL is adjust on the fly league anymore. The days of winning a championship by just pounding the pigskin down the throat of every team are over. Great point on Cowher's stubborness with his power running game in the post-season. Plus when you factor in coaches like Belichick who take away your strengths and force you to beat him with your weakness then you pretty much need a balanced attack in todays NFL.

Also Cowher finally won the Super Bowl with a speed RB as his starting RB and also by opening up the offense in the play-offs. Lets face it was Ben's arm in those three play-off games that got us to the Super Bowl rather then the RB's legs.

Plus looking at our current players on offense I think their talents fit a spread offense more then a true power offense especially Willie Parker.

Thanks bro.....change is going to happen whether fans like it or not. I really believe that Tomlin knows what hes doing, thats not guaranteeing success in his first season but at least he has a direction he wants the Steelers to be going in. He is setting us up for a lot of future success. How much you want to bet the Rooneys told Cowher "Get your head outta your ***, be more flexible and win us another Lombardi" :lol:

Stlrs4Life
05-24-2007, 09:02 PM
Great points Blitzburgh, I'm in the power crowd. Must be old! Long drives also keep our defense rested on the bench.

Blitzburghpete
05-25-2007, 04:06 AM
Stlrs4Life - Great points Blitzburgh, I'm in the power crowd. Must be old! Long drives also keep our defense rested on the bench.


Finally !! hehehe. Seriously i totally understand everone's comments about we need to be flexible etc etc but since when has any team been great at both power and finese ? never, you are either one or the other. This thread is not about Cowher, or parker. The thread is getting away from the main point i was trying to make of the physcological damage and intimdation the ramming down the other teams throats casues. Remeber the book extract was from a Raven point of view.

again
The Ravens were only 10 points behind with loads of time to play yet they were sooo demoralized because of the way they were physically dominated by power football it was already over. Finese football would never have had that effect on them. They knew they couldn't do anything about the power so in essence "gave up". If they were playing a finese team for sure they wouldn't have thought that they would have thought lets be smart and we're still in it.

Yes i understand with the personel we currently have power is not a great option ( although i think Davenprt could do a good job if given more responsibility ) , and we need to ulitlaze what we have to the best of our abilities for sure, just i think nothing scares the willies out of an opponent more than a power running game and would prefer it if the Steelers went back to that rather than as it appears we are going to get away from it.

wouldn't you rather have an offencive system that made other teams "give up" shortly after half time than an offencive system still let other teams think they are still in the game even when they are only 10 pioints behind?

Anyway i think thats enough on this you get my point, ( sigh maybe i'm just having Bus withdral symptoms.......... god i miss seeing him play )

SteelersWoman
05-25-2007, 02:44 PM
...i think nothing scares the willies out of an opponent more than a power running game and would prefer it if the Steelers went back to that rather than as it appears we are going to get away from it.)

If anyone saw Jack Lambert, or Mean Joe, etc barrelling down on them, they were scared lol


wouldn't you rather have an offencive system that made other teams "give up" shortly after half time than an offencive system still let other teams think they are still in the game even when they are only 10 pioints behind?

Of course! We're STEELER fans--that's what (given our DRUTHERS) we'd ALL rather have most of the time--or at least 98% of us I'd assume. I mean watchin those old greats in action from the 70's (when guys were actually still ALLOWED to play football without all the stupid pansy calls/flags....that was some great action!

I kind of feel that the officiating has caused as much or more change to the way we can play (as anything else), and gettin used to the refs new rules had to be hard to handle as well...


Anyway i think thats enough on this you get my point, ( sigh maybe i'm just having Bus withdral symptoms.......... god i miss seeing him play )


Absolutely --we know exactly what you mean... :bigthumb:

Black@Gold Forever32
05-25-2007, 06:28 PM
Stlrs4Life - Great points Blitzburgh, I'm in the power crowd. Must be old! Long drives also keep our defense rested on the bench.


Finally !! hehehe. Seriously i totally understand everone's comments about we need to be flexible etc etc but since when has any team been great at both power and finese ? never, you are either one or the other. This thread is not about Cowher, or parker. The thread is getting away from the main point i was trying to make of the physcological damage and intimdation the ramming down the other teams throats casues. Remeber the book extract was from a Raven point of view.

again
The Ravens were only 10 points behind with loads of time to play yet they were sooo demoralized because of the way they were physically dominated by power football it was already over. Finese football would never have had that effect on them. They knew they couldn't do anything about the power so in essence "gave up". If they were playing a finese team for sure they wouldn't have thought that they would have thought lets be smart and we're still in it.

Yes i understand with the personel we currently have power is not a great option ( although i think Davenprt could do a good job if given more responsibility ) , and we need to ulitlaze what we have to the best of our abilities for sure, just i think nothing scares the willies out of an opponent more than a power running game and would prefer it if the Steelers went back to that rather than as it appears we are going to get away from it.

wouldn't you rather have an offencive system that made other teams "give up" shortly after half time than an offencive system still let other teams think they are still in the game even when they are only 10 pioints behind?

Anyway i think thats enough on this you get my point, ( sigh maybe i'm just having Bus withdral symptoms.......... god i miss seeing him play )

Getting away from the point? I don't think so.... When talking about what type of offense you prefer then you have to take in account what type of players we have on offense. When looking at the current offensive players on the Steelers roster the O players don't fit a true power offense. When you have a speed RB like Willie Parker you have to tailor an offense that best suits his talents. As for Dookie Daveport...The guy isn't a power back. Yes he is 250 pounds but he doesn't run like a power runner.

As for why Bill Cowher was mentioned in this thread....His so called great power running game only netted the Steelers one Super Bowl win in his 15 years as HC. You just can't run the ball down the throat of every team anymore and expect to win a Super Bowl. The 70s are over....Get over it.:lol:

K Train
05-25-2007, 06:34 PM
lol "finesse" give me a break, that means your soft....steelers are not soft, jus because we are gonna have a fast RB and a few WRs on the field at one time and maybe throw the ball a little more doesnt mean we play like girls. Our defense is one of the best and has potential to get better so its not soft at all....no one runs on the steelers and we take pride in that, tomlin will make our secondary better and it will be a hardcore defense not "finesse". But just because we dont have cowher running the ball 4 times and punting and playing not to lose doesnt mean we are a "finesse" team off of a sudden. Its a new time for the steelers and i cant wait...just becaus we dont have the bus to have 20 carries in the 4th quarter doesnt mean its the end of smashmouth football as we know it...its just changed a little bit

Black@Gold Forever32
05-25-2007, 06:41 PM
lol "finesse" give me a break, that means your soft....steelers are not soft, jus because we are gonna have a fast RB and a few WRs on the field at one time and maybe throw the ball a little more doesnt mean we play like girls. Our defense is one of the best and has potential to get better so its not soft at all....no one runs on the steelers and we take pride in that, tomlin will make our secondary better and it will be a hardcore defense not "finesse". But just because we dont have cowher running the ball 4 times and punting and playing not to lose doesnt mean we are a "finesse" team off of a sudden. Its a new time for the steelers and i cant wait...just becaus we dont have the bus to have 20 carries in the 4th quarter doesnt mean its the end of smashmouth football as we know it...its just changed a little bit

Nice post train...I hate all this talk of power or finesse anyway. The Steelers will always run the football and stop the run. I just like the fact we won't be as predictable on offense anymore. If that labels as a finesse team then so be it.:lol:

okiesteeler
05-25-2007, 07:45 PM
Before any one condems the Tomlin new offense, lets watch it in action and see if we cant fall in love with it the same way we did when The Bus came on board and ran people over.

BlitzburghRockCity
05-25-2007, 07:50 PM
Nice post train...I hate all this talk of power or finesse anyway. The Steelers will always run the football and stop the run. I just like the fact we won't be as predictable on offense anymore. If that labels as a finesse team then so be it.:lol:


That's what it's all about; running the ball and stopping the run. If we don't do that we're sunk. We've prided ourselves on that philosophy for as long as I can remember so there's no reason to stop now. Our players need to step up and be accounted for.

DIESELMAN
05-25-2007, 08:14 PM
wouldn't you rather have an offencive system that made other teams "give up" shortly after half time than an offencive system still let other teams think they are still in the game even when they are only 10 pioints behind?

I get where you're coming from on this thread. Truthfully, I'd rather have the Steel Curtain defense back, you want to talk about being demoralized. RB's and QB's getting shellshocked and stuffed in the backfield will make an entire offense feel totally helpless. WR's scared to go across the middle for fear of being laid out, offensive huddles where players are crying and knees are shaking. BRING BACK THE GLORY DAYS!!!!! HERE WE GO STEELERS HERE WE GO!!!!! :cope: :cope: :cope: :cope: :cope:

Stairwayto7
05-26-2007, 08:44 AM
A combination for sure, with Willie, 60 / 40 Finesse

K Train
05-26-2007, 01:08 PM
i dont get that, how is willie finesse????????? i never considered him a soft runner, the dude runs hard and falls forward....just because hes not the biggest and hes fast doesnt mean hes soft :dunno:

Black@Gold Forever32
05-26-2007, 01:14 PM
i dont get that, how is willie finesse????????? i never considered him a soft runner, the dude runs hard and falls forward....just because hes not the biggest and hes fast doesnt mean hes soft :dunno:

I don't think anybody is calling Willie soft by no means Train...Its just he isn't a RB that can pound a defense all day...I agree Willie Parker has proven to be a very tough RB but he isn't a power RB.

K Train
05-26-2007, 01:17 PM
im sorry but i see "finesse" i see soft, hes not a fat back and hes not a grinder but there arent many of those anymore...i just dont think its fair to be labeled finesse because your running back can break it on any play

Black@Gold Forever32
05-26-2007, 01:29 PM
im sorry but i see "finesse" i see soft, hes not a fat back and hes not a grinder but there arent many of those anymore...i just dont think its fair to be labeled finesse because your running back can break it on any play

I don't know I don't think finesse is actually soft....When I look at Dookie and see a RB his size with the way he runs then I think that could be labeled as soft.:lol:

I hate all this power or finesse talk anyway....Any Steelers fan should know that Willie isn't soft by no means. I'll just call Wille a factor back.:lol:

K Train
05-26-2007, 01:40 PM
lol najeh is soft...we all know that :lol:

Black@Gold Forever32
05-26-2007, 01:53 PM
lol najeh is soft...we all know that :lol:

No not everybody does Train.:lol: Some still think he can a be a Bettis type....If Dookie can work on his blitz pickup then I think he could be a very good 3rd down RB. He runs the screen pass very well.

Stairwayto7
05-26-2007, 02:21 PM
I never meant to imply that wILLIE IS SOFT. HE is not a power back though.

TEEMONT
05-26-2007, 02:49 PM
Dookie needs to hit the weight room....I guarantee you if you did thud drills with him and Willie....Willie would light his *** up every time.

Black@Gold Forever32
05-26-2007, 02:53 PM
Dookie needs to hit the weight room....I guarantee you if you did thud drills with him and Willie....Willie would light his *** up every time.

I agree Teemont...:bigthumb:

25MVPKing
05-26-2007, 05:00 PM
Finesse isn't soft. Finesse is lightening. Finesse can be smart in the right situation.

Power is you know what we're going to do and you can't stop it. "Hey defense, I-Form HB draw." Then Willie breaks a 40 up the middle. :cope:

There isn't an argument here. The Steelers aren't soft and no one implied they were. Most of us realize you have to be well rounded. Well rounded doesn't mean you can't use 4 wide. You can use 3 wide, 2 TEs, and single back formation to bust Willie through the tackle and the TE. A slot receiver across the middle for 6 eats just as much clock as a rush.

There's more than one way to wear down a defense and win a game. And we (the Steelers) know them all. :cool: *evil laugh* :evillaugh:

Black@Gold Forever32
05-26-2007, 05:02 PM
Finesse isn't soft. Finesse is lightening. Finesse can be smart in the right situation.

Power is you know what we're going to do and you can't stop it. "Hey defense, I-Form HB draw." Then Willie breaks a 40 up the middle. :cope:

There isn't an argument here. The Steelers aren't soft and no one implied they were. Most of us realize you have to be well rounded. Well rounded doesn't mean you can't use 4 wide. You can use 3 wide, 2 TEs, and single back formation to bust Willie through the tackle and the TE. A slot receiver across the middle for 6 eats just as much clock as a rush.

There's more than one way to wear down a defense and win a game. And we (the Steelers) know them all. :cool: *evil laugh* :evillaugh:

Nice post.......:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

SteelersWoman
05-26-2007, 05:15 PM
Since there's been several ideas on what finesse actually "means", I decided I'd help by looking up the actual meaning in the dictionary....

Here they are, in no particular order:

1. Cleverness and skill in dealing with a difficult situation
2. Refinement of performance, and execution
3. Deceptive or evasive strategy
4. Artful management

To me, ALL those things sound good--added to what we're already doin? I can't see where it would hurt us in any way :2cents: Besides--I think we've already done it lots of times :)

Wanted to add "Great post"! to 25MVPKing

Blitzburghpete
05-26-2007, 05:23 PM
Crumbs what have i started here!!! heheh

Ok Finese = a timing offence that relies on timing, tactics, execution, perfect route running. Think Joe Montana niner days
Power does exactly what it says on the tin. = Bettis/John Riggins/Jim Brown etc

This was never a discussion about Parker this was a discussion about offenceive schemes and philosphies for the Steelers, and the news that our offencive stragery for this upcoming year was to turn into a "finese" offence instead of being a power running game one and my reaction to it.

Parker is a new debate all by himself.

Parker is not a power back, he's not a finese back either but he is a bloody good running back that i'm pleased is playing for Pitt.

As for getting on Dookies' back what games were you guys watching last year. Remeber THAT hit Ben got against the ravens? If you look at the film he got that hit because of Parkers poor pass protection. Next week dookie was in as 3rd down back and hey preto Ben's season gets better.

Dookie did the ugly stuff really well but Parker got the headlines

Black@Gold Forever32
05-26-2007, 05:31 PM
Crumbs what have i started here!!! heheh

Ok Finese = a timing offence that relies on timing, tactics, execution, perfect route running. Think Joe Montana niner days
Power does exactly what it says on the tin. = Bettis/John Riggins/Jim Brown etc

This was never a discussion about Parker this was a discussion about offenceive schemes and philosphies for the Steelers, and the news that our offencive stragery for this upcoming year was to turn into a "finese" offence instead of being a power running game one and my reaction to it.

Parker is a new debate all by himself.

Parker is not a power back, he's not a finese back either but he is a bloody good running back that i'm pleased is playing for Pitt.

As for getting on Dookies' back what games were you guys watching last year. Remeber THAT hit Ben got against the ravens? If you look at the film he got that hit because of Parkers poor pass protection. Next week dookie was in as 3rd down back and hey preto Ben's season gets better.

Dookie did the ugly stuff really well but Parker got the headlines

Bullocks....:lol:

Dude when talking about what type of offense to run you have to look at the type of players you have....You can't just be a power offense if the players you have doesn't fit that scheme. Not saying you can't have power elements to your offense but you just can't be a power offense with a RB like Willie Parker as your starting RB.

Good point on Dookie in pass protectiong but he still needs to work on that part of his game also. I did mention if Dookie works on his blitz pickup then he would make a very good third down back. But if you think Dookie is a power RB then you're mistaken...He doesn't run like a 250 pound RB.

Blitzburghpete
05-26-2007, 05:53 PM
Dude when talking about what type of offense to run you have to look at the type of players you have....You can't just be a power offense if the players you have doesn't fit that scheme. Not saying you can't have power elements to your offense but you just can't be a power offense with a RB like Willie Parker as your starting RB.


Hi mate,
AGAIN i've never said Parker was a power back or we should play him like one, i'm talking about offencive schemes only but this does enivitably get rawn into the current players.
Yes your totally right to say that you have to look at the players you have and of course Parker does not fit the mould of a power back offence. I'm not that niave or stupid to think otherwise. It frustrated the hell out of me when Cowher was using him like one too.

It's just i think if your building an offence from scratch the best offencive system to adopt as a starting point is the power game. It's been the most effective for the steelers since i can remember ( and i didn't get stuck in the 70's as i never saw any 70's games as someone earlier mentioned ) and as per the book extract i posted it has a huge demoralizing effect on the opposition.

I think your being too hard on Davenport. Admittedly i've not seen all the games since we've signed him but enough to know he's not bad and i think getting better and doing everything asked of him enough for him to warrant being given more responsibility in the running game.

Anyway i enough cos i think we need to start a new thread on how to get the best out of Parkers ability. Whatever though we have some bloody great talent at our disposal this year however they are used!! I'm just glad that i support the steelers and won't have to face our offence!

Black@Gold Forever32
05-26-2007, 06:19 PM
Dude when talking about what type of offense to run you have to look at the type of players you have....You can't just be a power offense if the players you have doesn't fit that scheme. Not saying you can't have power elements to your offense but you just can't be a power offense with a RB like Willie Parker as your starting RB.


Hi mate,
AGAIN i've never said Parker was a power back or we should play him like one, i'm talking about offencive schemes only but this does enivitably get rawn into the current players.
Yes your totally right to say that you have to look at the players you have and of course Parker does not fit the mould of a power back offence. I'm not that niave or stupid to think otherwise. It frustrated the hell out of me when Cowher was using him like one too.

It's just i think if your building an offence from scratch the best offencive system to adopt as a starting point is the power game. It's been the most effective for the steelers since i can remember ( and i didn't get stuck in the 70's as i never saw any 70's games as someone earlier mentioned ) and as per the book extract i posted it has a huge demoralizing effect on the opposition.

I think your being too hard on Davenport. Admittedly i've not seen all the games since we've signed him but enough to know he's not bad and i think getting better and doing everything asked of him enough for him to warrant being given more responsibility in the running game.

Anyway i enough cos i think we need to start a new thread on how to get the best out of Parkers ability. Whatever though we have some bloody great talent at our disposal this year however they are used!! I'm just glad that i support the steelers and won't have to face our offence!


Nice conversation by the way....This is the type of of conversation I like. I know what you're saying its great to see the Steelers wear a team out and make them quit by being a power team. Its just so hard to win a Super Bowl being just a power team in today's NFL anymore. I rather have a balaneced offense but still be able to smack people in the mouth when needed.

DIESELMAN
05-26-2007, 07:59 PM
Crumbs what have i started here!!! heheh

This was never a discussion about Parker this was a discussion about offenceive schemes and philosphies for the Steelers, and the news that our offencive stragery for this upcoming year was to turn into a "finese" offence instead of being a power running game one and my reaction to it.

Parker is a new debate all by himself.

Get used to it bro :lol: Thats what makes SA a cool place to be. These threads will take you to places you've never been and really make you think. A lot of knowledgable Steeler fans here, including yourself. Nice posts by the way. :bigthumb:

K Train
05-26-2007, 08:15 PM
lol i just hate the word finesse....its not a word that should be taken kindly to when called in the game of football lol

BlitzburghRockCity
05-26-2007, 09:10 PM
Nice conversation by the way....This is the type of of conversation I like. I know what you're saying its great to see the Steelers wear a team out and make them quit by being a power team. Its just so hard to win a Super Bowl being just a power team in today's NFL anymore. I rather have a balaneced offense but still be able to smack people in the mouth when needed.


Who'd have ever thought we'd hear those words...that's all we ever were for the last 15 years. I'm not sure I'll know what to do with an actual balanced offense :bluelol:

Blitzburghpete
05-27-2007, 03:47 AM
Dieselman posted.
Get used to it bro Thats what makes SA a cool place to be. These threads will take you to places you've never been and really make you think. A lot of knowledgable Steeler fans here, including yourself. Nice posts by the way.



Thanks mate, I used to be a member of Mac and wife ( other steeler fan site ) but quickly found out that you need a flack jacket to be prepared for a ton of abuse if you want to have a conversation with someone. :nono:

It's great to be able to have an adult conversation here on SA with other likeminded knowledgable steeler fans and not get sworn at for sometimes having a slightly different opinion to someone else.
I appreciate it cos here in england talking american football to anyone here is few and far between.

This site rocks!!! It's much cooler than any other steeler fan site i've been to. Top banana guys :banana::banana::banana: ( english saying ) , your the best.

K Train
05-27-2007, 10:34 AM
lol top banana to you too :lol:

BlitzburghRockCity
05-27-2007, 10:53 AM
It's the new SA catch phrase !

Top Banana to you all !! :lol:

25MVPKing
05-27-2007, 12:07 PM
Who'd have ever thought we'd hear those words (Black@Gold Forever32: Its just so hard to win a Super Bowl being just a power team in today's NFL anymore)...that's all we ever were for the last 15 years. I'm not sure I'll know what to do with an actual balanced offense :bluelol:
To be completely fair, if I'm not mistaken, since 1993 no teams have had less losses then the Steelers (because of the tie against at Atlanta, it's not more wins). And yet, there's only 2 Super Bowl appearances in that stretch. While teams like the Broncos, Packers, Patriots, Cowboys, and Bills have had the same or more appearances.

With the Steelers 1 victory, they've got less Super Bowl wins since 1993 than the Patriots, Cowboys, and Broncos in that same stretch (Bills 0-2, Packers 1-1).

So there must be some disconnect between being able to win (beat anybody at any given time) and being able to win champsionships (beat everybody).

Winning a Super Bowl has never been easy. Winning a Super Bowl one-dimensionally has never been harder.

And yes, I've noticed that I can make counterpoints without having to explain that I'm not trying to :stirpot:, that I just like intelligent conversation--it's how I learn. :popcorn: Futhermore: top banana. That is all. :banana:

SteelersWoman
05-27-2007, 01:53 PM
Nice conversation by the way....This is the type of of conversation I like. ....


...Thats what makes SA a cool place to be. These threads will take you to places you've never been and really make you think. ...


......It's great to be able to have an adult conversation here ...and not get sworn at for sometimes having a slightly different opinion to someone else.
...

Well said all! It takes adults to be able to have differing opinions without acting like tantrum throwing 2 year olds about it.

It's rare for things to get out of hand on this site--it's why it's the only Steeler site I've stuck with. Even on the rare occasions when tempers flare from the generally "cool tempered" members, it doesn't last long, and things are smoothed over fairly quickly.

And let's face it, there's always gonna be one or two members on every site who just don't know HOW to talk sensibly when someone doesn't agree with them. I, (for one) just won't get into a good debate with them, because it just never works out (what I would term) successfully. And it doesn't take long to discover exactly which members are like that :lol:

THIS thread has been great because differing opinion have been offered, discussed, mulled over, thought about, and expounded on without anyone acting like a child, throwing a tantrum, or acting like an idiot--THAT is great debate--THAT is success! :D

BlitzburghRockCity
05-27-2007, 02:21 PM
So there must be some disconnect between being able to win (beat anybody at any given time) and being able to win champsionships (beat everybody).

That disconnect is what we've struggled with during the whole Cowher era. We've been as successful as we could ask for in the regular season usually but when it came to the playoffs it's like something just clicked and all the flaws that were seemingly hidden were exposed each and every time. Whether it was a sub par return game, coverage units, inexperienced QB, poor secondary play or whatever we found out that we weren't as dominant as we thought we were when push came to shove.

Im looking for all that to change in this new era with Tomlin. More focus, more attention to detail, and just generally more emphasis on the fundamentals and we can really step it back up to where we are in contention every year and able to get over the hump in the playoffs with more regularity.

Blitzburghpete
05-27-2007, 04:31 PM
hehe if nothing else i've introduced you all to "Top banana" :banana::banana::banana: hehe

House of Steel
05-27-2007, 04:45 PM
Blitzburgh Pete and I are former Mac and Wife brothers. We go back about two years. I've known Pete all that time and he is truly through thick and thin one of the best friends I could ever made at mac and wife. He is a true friend unlike the rest of them over there. A very few are elite in my book.

I am just glad everyone here has accepted him with open arms and gratitude. I told him about this place and I can tell he has found a new home.

POWER FOOTBALL IS THE WAY TO GO!!! :tt02: :tt02:

TOP BANANA TO YOU TOO!!!! :greengrin: :haha: