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TarlsQtr
07-08-2014, 01:25 PM
Would you do it? (Of course, that would assume cap room which we do not really have).


The New Orleans Saints have seven more days to come to terms with Jimmy Graham on a long-term deal after an arbitrator ruled against Graham and determined he was in fact a tight end and not a receiver, a decision that could cost Graham around $5 million in his 2014 salary. The franchise tag for a tight end is $7 million while it is $12 million for a receiver.

In the next seven days the other 31 NFL teams must determine if they would like to ship two first-round draft picks to the Saints for the rights to Graham. That’s the cost for a player who is designated with the franchise tag.

Graham, who has 3,863 receiving yards and 41 touchdowns in his first four seasons, would like to be paid like a receiver and won’t settle for $7 million a year. It will take much more than that to sign him to a long-term deal.

With that in mind, which NFL teams should make a pitch for Graham’s services if the Saints cannot make a long-term deal a reality? And if not Graham, who in the NFL is worth two first-round picks?

The first reaction of general managers is to quickly dismiss the idea of giving two future first-round picks to another team for one player. General managers place a tremendous amount of value on first-round draft choices because that’s the way they build their team.

If Graham would underperform or get injured after a GM makes such a move it could potentially set his franchise back and cost him his job.

However, such a move could make sense for a small number of teams. Those teams with a small window to compete for a championship are the obvious candidates because they figure to be drafting near the bottom of the first round where the draft picks are not as valuable.

*New England, which has not won a Super Bowl since 2004, might want to go for it one last time while Tom Brady is still in his prime. The Patriots used Rob Gronkowski and Aaron Hernandez together before the latter was arrested for murder. A Gronkowski-Graham combination would be even scarier.

*Atlanta was 4-12 last season, but they have Matt Ryan and Roddy White. Adding Graham could get the Falcons back in the playoffs in a competitive NFC. Two years ago, the Falcons played host to the NFC championship when Tony Gonzalez had 93 receptions for 930 yards and eight touchdowns. Gonzalez was at the end of his Hall of Fame career. Plug Graham into his role and the Falcons could expect better production.

*The Packers could use a pass-catching tight end for Aaron Rodgers. Jermichael Finely used to fill that role for the Packers, but he has been injured for the past couple of seasons. Graham could be paired with Jordy Nelson and Randall Cobb to form a terrific trio for 2014. They could give the Packers the offensive punch to compete with the Seahawks and 49ers in the NFC.

*Seattle is the defending Super Bowls champions, but the Seahawks could use another target in the passing game for Russell Wilson. The Seahawks are built around a dominant defense. Adding Graham could make the Seahawks a team that makes multiple Super Bowls appearances in a short window and give them an opportunity to become a dynasty. The Seahawks have the salary cap space to pull off such a move because Wilson is playing on his rookie contract for two more years.

It’s a tough call for a GM to determine if Graham is worth the high price tag. If a tight end is not deemed worthy of two future first-round picks which players in the NFL are?

Tom Brady and Peyton Manning would have been in their primes, of course. But they are too old now. That leaves Aaron Rodgers and Andrew Luck as the slam dunks. Maybe a few other quarterbacks would be considered.

After the quarterbacks it gets dicey.

No running backs are worth the price in today’s NFL that is built around the passing game. Not even Adrian Peterson. A few receivers could be but only if that team has a franchise quarterback to throw to them.

Calvin Johnson immediately comes to mind, but who else?

http://sportsblogs.post-gazette.com/sports/steelers-steelers-blog/2014/07/08/Who-in-the-NFL-is-worth-two-first-round-draft-picks.html

K Train
07-08-2014, 01:46 PM
I would probably do a first and second

Big T
07-08-2014, 01:54 PM
I would probably do a first and second

I agree with that. I'd probably throw in an extra 3 or 4, but that's about it. Two firsts would be tough to let go of.

TarlsQtr
07-08-2014, 02:37 PM
Well, I think NPB and (maybe you two) were ready to let our 1 this year and 1 next year go for Sammy Watkins. Do I remember incorrectly? Why not a known entity like Graham?

Just playing devil's advocate. ;-)

For me, the deal breaker is that after giving up the picks you still have to pay him.

K Train
07-08-2014, 03:12 PM
Well, I think NPB and (maybe you two) were ready to let our 1 this year and 1 next year go for Sammy Watkins. Do I remember incorrectly? Why not a known entity like Graham?

Just playing devil's advocate. ;-)

For me, the deal breaker is that after giving up the picks you still have to pay him.

I would have given up 15, and the second round pick and probably like a 4th for watkins....2 firsts is insane in most cases, especially non QBs

Rollers
07-08-2014, 03:53 PM
Well, I think NPB and (maybe you two) were ready to let our 1 this year and 1 next year go for Sammy Watkins. Do I remember incorrectly? Why not a known entity like Graham?

Just playing devil's advocate. ;-)

For me, the deal breaker is that after giving up the picks you still have to pay him.

Pay him. Bingo. I'm not into investing that much into that position even if it is Graham. He's going to want the sky for a salary and we just upped our center pretty good. I'll pass and see what we can find in the draft.

K Train
07-08-2014, 04:07 PM
Go find NBA draft rejects and see if they can catch

Steeltrap
07-08-2014, 04:33 PM
Pay him. Bingo. I'm not into investing that much into that position even if it is Graham. He's going to want the sky for a salary and we just upped our center pretty good. I'll pass and see what we can find in the draft.

^
this.

NeilPatrickBanana
07-08-2014, 05:59 PM
Well, I think NPB and (maybe you two) were ready to let our 1 this year and 1 next year go for Sammy Watkins. Do I remember incorrectly? Why not a known entity like Graham?

Just playing devil's advocate. ;-)

For me, the deal breaker is that after giving up the picks you still have to pay him.

Investing 2 firsts in someone who would spend 4 years on the rookie wage scale, is a big difference between 2 firsts on someone who will take up 10% of your cap space.

muncher
07-08-2014, 09:01 PM
2 first rounders for an extra tackle in our offense?

Big T
07-08-2014, 10:58 PM
2 first rounders for an extra tackle in our offense?

Except for the fact that Heath had the best statistical season of his career the only healthy season he's played under Todd Haley (while also missing the final game of the year). And Heath Miller is nowhere near the receiving threat Graham is.

connecticutsteel
07-09-2014, 01:35 AM
no i wouldn't give up 2 one's for graham for one he's a huge WR not a TE can't block enough for this offense we are fine at TE if it ain't broke don't fix it . we need CB/DB NOT TE'S

p.s it's good to be back howdy y'all

K Train
07-09-2014, 07:18 AM
graham isnt the best blocker but he can block....why would you keep him in to block though? ever?

FlatsSteeler
07-09-2014, 07:20 AM
I wouldn't trade Two 1st round picks for anybody in the NFL.....ANYBODY.....That kind of stupidity is for the Redskins, Browns Raiders, Dolphins, Jags, ect....ect.......On the other token I would trade anybody on the Team for Two 1st round picks......ANYBODY......

K Train
07-09-2014, 07:26 AM
Id trade two first round pick for Aaron Rodgers

Maybe Calvin Johnson

Jay cutler was traded for 2 firsts

I remember when the skins offered 2 firsts for Chad Johnson lol

FlatsSteeler
07-09-2014, 07:33 AM
Id trade two first round pick for Aaron Rodgers

Maybe Calvin Johnson

Jay cutler was traded for 2 firsts

I remember when the skins offered 2 firsts for Chad Johnson lol

I thought long about Calvin Johnson and Andrew Luck but CJ is already getting up there in age and Luck isn't worth two #1's........As for Rogers same thing age and value......So I'll stick to my original comment.....

FlatsSteeler
07-09-2014, 07:38 AM
This thread reminds me of the dumbest trade in the history of the NFL......The Cowboys(I can't stand them) trading Herschel Walker to the Vikings for Basically the 90's Dallas Dynasty(I hate saying that)......

K Train
07-09-2014, 07:39 AM
Yeah I would probably bite on Luck too. Luck and Rodgers seem legit for that asking price to me

Calvin Johnson is only 28...sign me up on that. The guy is going to shatter records by the time hes done

FlatsSteeler
07-09-2014, 08:06 AM
Yeah I would probably bite on Luck too. Luck and Rodgers seem legit for that asking price to me

Calvin Johnson is only 28...sign me up on that. The guy is going to shatter records by the time hes done

I agree with the right team CJ would be a monster, I am not sure the Steelers are currently that team.....Haleys Offense avg Plays per game including punts are 63.9......34 are passing plays and now with the 2 RB offense I think they will up that Running stat a bit more to about 28 runs per game that wouldn' allow CJ much touches to smash records......Just my 2 cents....

greg1964
07-09-2014, 08:13 AM
No.....I wouldn't do this: Consider he is not a blocker/catcher type: The Steelers need someone that can do both.

K Train
07-09-2014, 08:28 AM
I agree with the right team CJ would be a monster, I am not sure the Steelers are currently that team.....Haleys Offense avg Plays per game including punts are 63.9......34 are passing plays and now with the 2 RB offense I think they will up that Running stat a bit more to about 28 runs per game that wouldn' allow CJ much touches to smash records......Just my 2 cents....

Haley is a WR guy...he would gush over having Calvin. He has put up HUGE numbers with WRs like Fitz/Boldin, TO/Glenn, and even Bowe, and now brown/any bum we line up across from him. Calvin is the perfect WR right now, and hes exceptionally perfect for haleys offense. Not that it matters, im just sayin.

FlatsSteeler
07-09-2014, 08:34 AM
Haley is a WR guy...he would gush over having Calvin. He has put up HUGE numbers with WRs like Fitz/Boldin, TO/Glenn, and even Bowe, and now brown/any bum we line up across from him. Calvin is the perfect WR right now, and hes exceptionally perfect for haleys offense. Not that it matters, im just sayin.

I cant argue your comment but the FO seems determine to run the ball more......Like you said "not that it matters" but CJ in BnG would be awesome for sure......

TarlsQtr
07-09-2014, 11:35 AM
I cant argue your comment but the FO seems determine to run the ball more......Like you said "not that it matters" but CJ in BnG would be awesome for sure......

Their position has always been that they need to run more effectively, not more often.

Their transition to the no huddle is not to become a ground and pound team.

K Train
07-09-2014, 11:36 AM
Bens play action is so dreamy....thats the best part about actually having a real life threat of a rushing attack

TarlsQtr
07-09-2014, 11:41 AM
Bens play action is so dreamy....thats the best part about actually having a real life threat of a rushing attack

Exactly. It opens up the deep ball and keeps Ben upright. It may not be as good as Peyton's, but Ben is great at it.

K Train
07-09-2014, 11:45 AM
His command of the no huddle might not be as good as peytons, but his playaction is brilliant. Hes fearless with it, and maybe with a running attack and some competant blockers he wont die

Blitzburghpete
07-09-2014, 12:14 PM
Look at it this way. I bet Heath Miller would have all world stats if he played in the Saints offencive system and he's a better run blocker than graham.

I wouldn't want Graham at that price. I think he's a superb TE, and at most 1 first rounder, but that's all.

I don't think ANY player is worth that much to a team ( 2 first rounders even someone like Megatron or Brady ). One injury and you would regret doing it. It's a TEAM game for a reason. Doesn't make any snese to invest THAT much into ONE player

K Train
07-09-2014, 12:26 PM
I highly doubt miller would put up those numbers in the saints offense. Graham is an increibly talented receiver

TarlsQtr
07-09-2014, 12:29 PM
Graham >>>>>Heath

Heath was a near perfect match for Arians' offense and is still good even in Haley's. That said, he is not as good a match for what NO would ask him to do (like Graham). Graham is much better at attacking the seam, as a red zone threat, and as an overall receiver. Heath cannot touch him in that regard.

Blitzburghpete
07-10-2014, 06:46 AM
^^^ agreed, but what i meant was and i admit saying all world stats was a bit too much, the point i meant was, i think the system graham is in flatters his statistics somewhat. He's a TE in a pass happy offence with a great QB. Put Heath in there at NO and i'm sure his figures would jump too. No not as big as Grahams figures but it's not to hard to think Miller in NO would post something like an 80 to 90 catch year at 1100 to 1200 yards in their system.

Graham is a Superb TE in a system that will make him look even better, but not worth 2 1st round picks for sure imo.

Steeltrap
07-10-2014, 08:44 AM
You can find Jimmy Graham's on the basketball court. Denver did it with Julius Thomas and the Chargers re-did it with their new kid Ladarious Green. You dont need to give up two first round picks. Ludicrous.

K Train
07-10-2014, 09:02 AM
Ladarius Green did not play basketball...hes just tall and black. He was a TE for 3 years and caught 22 TDs in college.

Also, you cant just act like you can find the best TE in the league any day of the week on the basketball court, it takes time. Graham had major dropsies his only year playing at Miami and he didnt play as a rookie, same with Julius Thomas....im all for recruiting some basketball players to groom but if it were so easy everyone would have one

TarlsQtr
07-10-2014, 09:47 AM
Steelers first round draft picks (2000-2014)

Burress
Hampton
Simmons
Troy
Ben
Heath
Holmes
Timmons
Mendy
Hood
Pouncey
Heyward
DeCastro
Jones
Shazier

Now, how many two year periods within that timeframe would you be better off keeping the picks rather than getting someone like Graham? For instance, Is Graham more or less valuable than Burress and Hampton were as our picks?

The only period where I believe the two picks were more valuable than Graham is 2003-2004 (Troy, Ben) and 2004-2005 (Ben, Heath). Ben is obviously the biggest factor in that. The problem for me is not the picks but that we still have to pay the guy huge money AFTER giving up the two picks. No way.

K Train
07-10-2014, 09:51 AM
I said I wouldnt give up 2 firsts for Graham (I would have considered it for Watkins or Evans, but even then I would be inclined to offer a first/second/fourth or something)

Putting it that way though...damn. Only 2 year stretch I could live with not having is without a doubt Mendenhall and Hood

Simmons found himself right in between gold for this particular evaluation...hampton and polamalu lol

The problem is the money though, not the picks. Steelers play so tight to the cap it would make them cut/not resign important pieces.

Interesting to see how it plays out in NO.....they scrapped together a lot of money for Byrd

ChucktownSteeler
07-11-2014, 07:40 AM
Mendy - Hood < Graham

KemoTherapy
07-11-2014, 04:55 PM
Now you KNOW it's a slow time of year when fantasies like this are getting discussed lol. I don't expect Graham to go anywhere.

Steeltrap
07-12-2014, 01:27 AM
Ladarius Green did not play basketball...hes just tall and black. He was a TE for 3 years and caught 22 TDs in college.

Also, you cant just act like you can find the best TE in the league any day of the week on the basketball court, it takes time. Graham had major dropsies his only year playing at Miami and he didnt play as a rookie, same with Julius Thomas....im all for recruiting some basketball players to groom but if it were so easy everyone would have one

I stand by what I previously said. Get five power forwards and then find out who's the best one and go from there. It's happened often enough (Tony Gonzalez, Julius Thomas, Jimmy Graham, Gates) for me to believe it's way more common then believed.

huntem
07-19-2014, 12:44 AM
Hes can't block so forget trading the farm for him in my honest opinion. I would rather pay a tight end who is part of the passing game and can run block