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View Full Version : Ben Is Now Longer a Elite QB



BubbyBlister
11-02-2013, 06:19 PM
Sorry supporters and ones living in denial but we seen the peak of Ben and it's all down hill from here on out. Heck his heart ain't even in the game anymore and hasn't been the last two seasons. He is a good part of the reason Pitt is losing and is no longer the comeback win guy with the fancy moves to extend a play and make something great happen. 1 out of 10 times he shows flashes of how awesome he was but the other 9 times it ends up hurting the team. Also the 1 time gives the supporters false hope. I thank him for the great years as a fan watching his talent and the two SB'S he help us win but asking anything more from him is unrealistic and time to think about the Steelers future.

BubbyBlister
11-02-2013, 06:28 PM
Will add he will have a few decent games here and there but with no consistence like in the past.

norcojim
11-02-2013, 07:55 PM
Will add he will have a few decent games here and there but with no consistence like in the past.

Bluster you amaze me. He is being assaulted at a record rate this year. How can you compare him to anything. This team sucks and its only going to get worse as the older ones retire and are replaced with Tomlin's junk.

Get7With7
11-02-2013, 08:49 PM
Most QBs don't look elite when they're only allowed to throw screen passes...

Rocky#20
11-02-2013, 08:53 PM
The Texans would give a king's ransom to get Ben and that would make them an instant Super Bowl contender. Or how about the Bengals? Cinci would be unstoppable with Ben at QB. He doesn't have the team around him here any more, but he could turn around a lot of other team's franchises.

Clevelandsux
11-02-2013, 09:38 PM
Agreed. Sick of trolls coming on here and spamming our board with get rid of Ben posts.

Nolrog
11-02-2013, 11:43 PM
It's hard to be an elite QB when the defensive linemen reach the pocket before the QB does.

steelchamp204
11-03-2013, 12:20 AM
Why do people get hurt when someone says he is not "elite" He is still good, but he's not what he used to be. Part of the issue is Haley calling the plays. He is still good, but he def isnt top 5 anymore. Still top 10 and I'll take that anyday.

NYCsteelersfan
11-03-2013, 12:39 AM
Why do people get hurt when someone says he is not "elite" He is still good, but he's not what he used to be. Part of the issue is Haley calling the plays. He is still good, but he def isnt top 5 anymore. Still top 10 and I'll take that anyday.

Because just like most of the others on this forum who claim Roethlisberger is no longer elite, what they're actually saying is that the team needs a new QB. Some posters are very implicit with their sentiment while others like this OP are more explicit.

I mean read the OP's message. He starts off by saying how Roethlisberger is no longer elite and then he ends by saying that Roethlisberger's current stats are the best of his current abilities based solely on his own skill level regardless of the team around him. Then he finishes it off by saying how the Steelers need to think of the future aka "bring in a new QB."

So we don't just have the "Roethlisberger isn't elite" group versus the "Roethlisberger is elite" group. What we have is the "We're too pu$$y to face forum backlash by saying we think the team would be better with a different QB, so we hide behind the Roethlisberger isn't elite BS" group versus the "no other QB in the league could be anymore successful with this team" group.

NeilPatrickBanana
11-03-2013, 01:23 AM
what makes a QB "elite"? ... hard to have a debate, when people operate under different definitions... and then are willing to warp those definitions when it doesn't suit them (see the eli/ben conundrum)

this conversation always gets stuck in the nonsense loop... when the Steelers win it's because Ben is elite, and when they lose it's because everything else sucks.

the term elite is thrown around way too casually.

i'd prefer we simply acknowledge that Ben was never elite. it's really that simple. that doesnt mean he isn't/wasn't a great QB. It doesn't mean he's not a 1st ballot Hall of Famer. It just means he's not Peyton, or Montana, or Marino... you know, guys that were the best of their time... the elites... not the 4th or 5th best QB for a few years...

some of the dunce caps want this to be a "you're either with us or against us" argument... unfortunately for them, there is more nuance and detail than they care to partake in.

steelchamp204
11-03-2013, 01:51 AM
Because just like most of the others on this forum who claim Roethlisberger is no longer elite, what they're actually saying is that the team needs a new QB. Some posters are very implicit with their sentiment while others like this OP are more explicit.

I mean read the OP's message. He starts off by saying how Roethlisberger is no longer elite and then he ends by saying that Roethlisberger's current stats are the best of his current abilities based solely on his own skill level regardless of the team around him. Then he finishes it off by saying how the Steelers need to think of the future aka "bring in a new QB."

So we don't just have the "Roethlisberger isn't elite" group versus the "Roethlisberger is elite" group. What we have is the "We're too pu$$y to face forum backlash by saying we think the team would be better with a different QB, so we hide behind the Roethlisberger isn't elite BS" group versus the "no other QB in the league could be anymore successful with this team" group.

I've gone on plenty of times here saying Ben is NOT elite. I also said that he was very good but he is hindered by Haley. I understand the line is complete **** as of now, but Ben has been better with Olines just as bad. I'm not saying by any means he is a scrub or a bum at all, and still people get bent out of shape. When I say he isnt elite, I dont want a new QB. I would want them to draft one maybe next season to learn from Ben for a couple years aka Farve and Rodgers, not saying our future QB would be of Rodgers caliber, but I believe Bens best days with this "system" and "team" who puts there ego's first before winning are over with. He is in for a big inury sooner rather than later playing behind this Oline, but I just wish the front 5 can stay healthy, which seems impossible anymore.

My main concern with this team goes.

1. Haley
2. Colbert
3. Tomlin
4. DL
5. Players.

SuperSteelers
11-03-2013, 02:12 AM
Mmmm...I never thought of Ben as an elite QB. Ben is a solid QB and a great on the field leader. This articles says it all and is a very informative read for any Ben lovers and haters:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/126457-big-ben-roethlisberger-not-an-elite-quarterbackyet

Clevelandsux
11-03-2013, 03:06 AM
And what qualifies you as elite? Fantasy football points? Wtf? The guy has won 2 super bowls! A lot of people will say bradshaw wasn't elite. Marino elite? 0 super bowls? P.manning one sb. Ben has always got it done his way, never pretty.

Only a few years back many ball washers were claiming Carson Palmer was better than Ben.

TarlsQtr
11-03-2013, 09:01 AM
Because just like most of the others on this forum who claim Roethlisberger is no longer elite, what they're actually saying is that the team needs a new QB. Some posters are very implicit with their sentiment while others like this OP are more explicit.

I mean read the OP's message. He starts off by saying how Roethlisberger is no longer elite and then he ends by saying that Roethlisberger's current stats are the best of his current abilities based solely on his own skill level regardless of the team around him. Then he finishes it off by saying how the Steelers need to think of the future aka "bring in a new QB."

So we don't just have the "Roethlisberger isn't elite" group versus the "Roethlisberger is elite" group. What we have is the "We're too pu$$y to face forum backlash by saying we think the team would be better with a different QB, so we hide behind the Roethlisberger isn't elite BS" group versus the "no other QB in the league could be anymore successful with this team" group.

Translation: You have to be all in on stroking Ben's sack. The slightest of criticisms mean that you are "very implicit in your sentiment" that you "hate" Ben.

What a joke.

PS Rodgers would do as well (dare I say better?) than Ben with this very flawed team.

Speeed
11-03-2013, 10:40 AM
Based on what, your speculation? No proof of that. I bet Ben would do better than Rogers on the Packers. Do you know why? Because I say so!

I don't care who thinks Ben is "elite" and who doesn't. He has two SB's, three appearances, and continues to make plays. The problem is, the Steelers, and their fans, rely on Ben to win games. Not merely manage the game, or just not to lose, but this team has zero going for it. As a result, Ben, being the only one who can win or lose games, is scrutinized so closely. The offensive line is the absolute keystone of problems with this team. Ben stands behind that gossimer curtain and throws the football. Fix the line, and we will start to win games.

Ben R. sure one of the most polarizing players/personalities in the league for sure. I am personally glad he is a Steeler, and I hope he gives us another 3-4 years before he retires. He sure has earned it.


Translation: You have to be all in on stroking Ben's sack. The slightest of criticisms mean that you are "very implicit in your sentiment" that you "hate" Ben.

What a joke.

PS Rodgers would do as well (dare I say better?) than Ben with this very flawed team.

TarlsQtr
11-03-2013, 11:20 AM
Based on what, your speculation? No proof of that. I bet Ben would do better than Rogers on the Packers. Do you know why? Because I say so!

I love when people make this assertion, as if they do not do the same thing. It is a message board. You do get that right? Can anything be "proven"? Of course not. What you can do is evaluate and debate. Rodger's line has been nearly as bad/as bad/worse than the Steelers over the last few years. Rodgers can read and get the ball out more quickly and is more agile than Ben (Ben is stronger in the grasp). I think that is painfully obvious to most but feel free to provide evidence if you feel otherwise.


I don't care who thinks Ben is "elite" and who doesn't.

Agreed.


He has two SB's, three appearances, and continues to make plays. The problem is, the Steelers, and their fans, rely on Ben to win games. Not merely manage the game, or just not to lose, but this team has zero going for it. As a result, Ben, being the only one who can win or lose games, is scrutinized so closely.

The QB is the most heavily scrutinized position on EVERY team. The Jags are AWFUL top to bottom but you do not see anti-[Insert player here] signs at the games, you see anti-Gabbert signs. They would even rather have TIM TEBOW! Even Peyton gets criticized for only one SB victory and Brady is taking heat.


The offensive line is the absolute keystone of problems with this team. Ben stands behind that gossimer curtain and throws the football. Fix the line, and we will start to win games.

Your statement above is as "speculative" and without "proof" as mine or any other. Again, we all do it.

It is the biggest offensive problem, IMO, but far from the only. I would also point out that our line has been terrible for a long time now, even when we were winning.


Ben R. sure one of the most polarizing players/personalities in the league for sure.

Mostly for off-field stuff, which he owns.


I am personally glad he is a Steeler, and I hope he gives us another 3-4 years before he retires. He sure has earned it.

And this is where we agree 100 percent. I have been watching Steeler football since the 70's and lived through the QB desert between Bradshaw and Ben. Those that can only go back to Stewart, O'Donnell, and Maddox just do not understand what bad really is. Mark Malone, Bubby Brister, et al. It was like having Henne and Gabbert as your QB for a decade plus. We are stuck on 4 SB without Ben.

NeilPatrickBanana
11-03-2013, 12:47 PM
And what qualifies you as elite? Fantasy football points? Wtf? The guy has won 2 super bowls! A lot of people will say bradshaw wasn't elite. Marino elite? 0 super bowls? P.manning one sb. Ben has always got it done his way, never pretty.

Only a few years back many ball washers were claiming Carson Palmer was better than Ben.

this is where the "super bowl" argument implodes on itself.... if super bowls are the big factor in defining elite... then joe flacco is more elite than dan marino...

dumb definition...

but you asked the question... so why don't you provide your definition of elite?

to me, there is a difference between the definition of "elite" (in terms of QB) and the criteria needed to "rank" QBs...

my definition of elite is solely based on QB skill, the subjective opinion of their talents that are relative to the position of QB.

where as my criteria for ranking QBs at any given time would not only include the subjective opinion of talent (elite-ness), but also the production (stats, wins, etc), resume (rings, awards, etc), intangibles (leadership, clutch, etc) that go along with it...

Ben isn't elite... but he still ranks as a top 10 QB in this league

Get7With7
11-03-2013, 02:11 PM
Translation: You have to be all in on stroking Ben's sack. The slightest of criticisms mean that you are "very implicit in your sentiment" that you "hate" Ben.

What a joke.

PS Rodgers would do as well (dare I say better?) than Ben with this very flawed team.

No he wouldn't, because he'd only be allowed to throw screen passes.

steelchamp204
11-03-2013, 02:12 PM
No he wouldn't, because he'd only be allowed to throw screen passes.

Yes he would.

Get7With7
11-03-2013, 02:16 PM
Yes he would.

No, the Steelers don't want to throw downfield. Thus Rodgers would just be a game manager and would only be called on when the team needs bailed out. That's how the Steelers do it regardless of who is QB because they want to play a prehistoric style of football.

Simply put, the Steelers devalue the quarterback position.

NeilPatrickBanana
11-03-2013, 02:27 PM
No, the Steelers don't want to throw downfield. Thus Rodgers would just be a game manager and would only be called on when the team needs bailed out. That's how the Steelers do it regardless of who is QB because they want to play a prehistoric style of football.

Simply put, the Steelers devalue the quarterback position.

this one always makes me laugh

Clevelandsux
11-03-2013, 02:42 PM
I really don't care if he's considered elite or not. How many years did we sit and watch the steelers lose big playoffs games with qbs like odonnell and Stewart? A lot of people don't consider Bradshaw elite, so what?

steelchamp204
11-03-2013, 02:53 PM
No, the Steelers don't want to throw downfield. Thus Rodgers would just be a game manager and would only be called on when the team needs bailed out. That's how the Steelers do it regardless of who is QB because they want to play a prehistoric style of football.

Simply put, the Steelers devalue the quarterback position.


:lol:

Get7With7
11-03-2013, 03:02 PM
this one always makes me laugh

You make a lot of people laugh when you say Ben has receivers that are the same caliber of Peyton's receivers. :lol:

steelchamp, you need to take your head out of the stat sheet and watch the game. Why do you think the Steelers would do anything differently if the QB was different? They fired Arians because they didn't want to throw downfield as often. Rodgers throwing screen passes in this offense isn't going to make it any better.

I know, you want to alienate the franchise QB. That's exactly what was done to Bradshaw 30 years ago.

norcojim
11-03-2013, 03:05 PM
:lol:

Give me either team we had in our last two super bowls and add a Rothlisberger of today and we would be undefeated and wiping up the NFL.

norcojim
11-03-2013, 03:07 PM
In spite of having Todd Haley or Mike Tomlin or Kevin Colbert.

NeilPatrickBanana
11-03-2013, 03:08 PM
You make a lot of people laugh when you say Ben has receivers that are the same caliber of Peyton's receivers. :lol:

i didn't say that about peyton's WRs... you have a poor memory.
I HAVE said, that Peyton's offensive line in Indy was pretty poor after Tariq Glenn retired
I HAVE said, that Rodgers has played behind a line that is no better than Pittsburghs
I HAVE said, that Rodgers WRs aren't "significantly" better than Ben's even though the "stat sheet" would have people like yourself believe otherwise...


steelchamp, you need to take your head out of the stat sheet and watch the game. Why do you think the Steelers would do anything differently if the QB was different? They fired Arians because they didn't want to throw downfield as often. Rodgers throwing screen passes in this offense isn't going to make it any better.

you should take your own advice...

they fired arians because they didn't score enough points, and could not run the ball effectively.

believing that they fired arians because the "didn't want to throw downfield as often" is among the dumber interpretations i've heard....

Get7With7
11-03-2013, 03:14 PM
i didn't say that about peyton's WRs... you have a poor memory.
I HAVE said, that Peyton's offensive line in Indy was pretty poor after Tariq Glenn retired
I HAVE said, that Rodgers has played behind a line that is no better than Pittsburghs
I HAVE said, that Rodgers WRs aren't "significantly" better than Ben's even though the "stat sheet" would have people like yourself believe otherwise...

:lol:

Once again you try to weasel your way out of an argument when you're proven wrong.

Again, is Rodgers reduced to throwing screen passes all the time in Green Bay? If he comes to Pittsburgh he would be.



[QUOTE}you should take your own advice...

they fired arians because they didn't score enough points, and could not run the ball effectively.

believing that they fired arians because the "didn't want to throw downfield as often" is among the dumber interpretations i've heard....[/QUOTE]

Actually, yes they did fire Arians. They wanted Ben to be "reigned in" and Arians didn't want to do that (rightfully so as it isn't 1972 anymore). Funny thing is the running game under Arians has been BETTER than the running game under Haley - you know, when Ben was supposedly this selfish gun-slinger that only cared about his stats.


The Steelers need to come into the modern era of football, otherwise it won't really matter who their QB is.

NeilPatrickBanana
11-03-2013, 03:14 PM
Give me either team we had in our last two super bowls and add a Rothlisberger of today and we would be undefeated and wiping up the NFL.

lol...

NeilPatrickBanana
11-03-2013, 03:18 PM
:lol:

Once again you try to weasel your way out of an argument when you're proven wrong.

Again, is Rodgers reduced to throwing screen passes all the time in Green Bay? If he comes to Pittsburgh he would be.

correcting your false statements is not weaseling :rolleyes:

your prediction of what would happen in a hypothetical is stupid




Actually, yes they did fire Arians. They wanted Ben to be "reigned in" and Arians didn't want to do that (rightfully so as it isn't 1972 anymore). Funny thing is the running game under Arians has been BETTER than the running game under Haley - you know, when Ben was supposedly this selfish gun-slinger that only cared about his stats.


The Steelers need to come into the modern era of football, otherwise it won't really matter who their QB is.

you share this viewpoint with many steelers fans... generally this group sounds to me like 3rd graders discussing global monetary policy

carry on

Black@Gold Forever32
11-03-2013, 03:26 PM
Another day and more of NeilPatrick thinking he is Bill Walsh, Vince Lombardi, Chuck Noll, Paul Brown rolled into one man......

Stone
11-03-2013, 06:32 PM
How the hell would you know if he's elite? That's like getting four flat tires and concluding your engine is blown because you can't go fast.

gpilner
11-03-2013, 07:04 PM
Sounds like bubby blister knows nothing about football and needs to go buy himself a Denver or Kansas city jersey and since I said Kansas city let me mention the obvious for idiots like bubby did you happen to notice since they got a real coach they are 9-0 bubby do you know who used to be their head coach two years ago when the sucked and also do you know that coincidentally the same time haley left there and came to Pittsburgh their offense went downhill. So I guess what I'm saying is next time you comment on here know what you're talking about because myself and the rest of the true steeler fans know what's up

Real Deal Steel
11-03-2013, 08:51 PM
Another day and more of NeilPatrick thinking he is Bill Walsh, Vince Lombardi, Chuck Noll, Paul Brown rolled into one man......

Just put him on ignore. I did a long time ago. It's a better world with him on ignore.

LatrobePA
11-03-2013, 09:23 PM
Ben is Brady's tampon!!

Black@Gold Forever32
11-03-2013, 09:27 PM
Ben is Brady's tampon!!

More like LeBeau's defense is.........

LatrobePA
11-03-2013, 09:28 PM
More like LeBeau's defense is.........

True, roll them all into a plug and insert into TB twat!

NeilPatrickBanana
11-03-2013, 09:31 PM
Just put him on ignore. I did a long time ago. It's a better world with him on ignore.

This is good advice.

coldrolled
11-03-2013, 10:56 PM
Ben missed a few throws... I guess the defense never watched the Jets game... Wow.. I hate when Brady looks good anytime and we let him, that's a double slam to the skull.

Get7With7
11-03-2013, 11:02 PM
Ben missed a few throws... I guess the defense never watched the Jets game... Wow.. I hate when Brady looks good anytime and we let him, that's a double slam to the skull.

This is why LeBeau has had a hard time against Brady. You can't play passive against him. You have to jam his receivers at the LOS and get pressure up the middle. They did that in 2011, but decided not to this time around.

steelchamp204
11-04-2013, 12:48 AM
Give me either team we had in our last two super bowls and add a Rothlisberger of today and we would be undefeated and wiping up the NFL.

Not sure if Troll or drunk. I'll say drunk.

norcojim
11-04-2013, 01:03 AM
Not sure if Troll or drunk. I'll say drunk.

For those of you who think Ben isn't elite, would you trade him? And what would it take to get you to trade him? Would you trade him for two firsts? How about 2 firsts and a 2nd? And if you were a team like Minnesota, Miami, Houston, Cincinnati, or Cleveland what would you be willing to give up for the opportunity to play in a super bowl now or say the next 4 years. And say we could get three #1's, what do you think the yo-yos doing the drafting would do with them. Bear in mind that just because its a #1 draft pick doesn't mean that you are going to be drafting until the 25th round or later because if you put Ben on any of those teams its going to probably at least get them into the playoffs. But then again we will have our pick that may guarantee a top 5 choice because even though we stink now, we would really smell without him.

Dean Denton
11-04-2013, 01:43 AM
For those of you who think Ben isn't elite, would you trade him? And what would it take to get you to trade him? Would you trade him for two firsts? How about 2 firsts and a 2nd? And if you were a team like Minnesota, Miami, Houston, Cincinnati, or Cleveland what would you be willing to give up for the opportunity to play in a super bowl now or say the next 4 years. And say we could get three #1's, what do you think the yo-yos doing the drafting would do with them. Bear in mind that just because its a #1 draft pick doesn't mean that you are going to be drafting until the 25th round or later because if you put Ben on any of those teams its going to probably at least get them into the playoffs. But then again we will have our pick that may guarantee a top 5 choice because even though we stink now, we would really smell without him.considering that there are about 15 legit QBs in the league I wouldn't trade Ben. People too often become a prisoner of the moment and forget all the big games we lost before Ben. I'd like to stick with Ben until he decides to call it a career. I'm in no hurry to go back to the way it was the 25 years before Ben. Not to mention the chance of us winning the lotto in the draft seems unrealistic.

steelchamp204
11-04-2013, 02:26 AM
For those of you who think Ben isn't elite, would you trade him? And what would it take to get you to trade him? Would you trade him for two firsts? How about 2 firsts and a 2nd? And if you were a team like Minnesota, Miami, Houston, Cincinnati, or Cleveland what would you be willing to give up for the opportunity to play in a super bowl now or say the next 4 years. And say we could get three #1's, what do you think the yo-yos doing the drafting would do with them. Bear in mind that just because its a #1 draft pick doesn't mean that you are going to be drafting until the 25th round or later because if you put Ben on any of those teams its going to probably at least get them into the playoffs. But then again we will have our pick that may guarantee a top 5 choice because even though we stink now, we would really smell without him.

We already smell with him, not saying it is all his fault. This team is not built to win now, I think this will take awhile to get back to one of the top AFC teams. I would trade Ben this season for 2 1st round picks and a 2nd the year after easily and start building for the future of this team.

USMC607
11-04-2013, 04:26 AM
considering that there are about 15 legit QBs in the league I wouldn't trade Ben. People too often become a prisoner of the moment and forget all the big games we lost before Ben. I'd like to stick with Ben until he decides to call it a career. I'm in no hurry to go back to the way it was the 25 years before Ben. Not to mention the chance of us winning the lotto in the draft seems unrealistic.

Agreed. I would rather not trade our first good QB since bradshaw and have to wait decades trying to find another. Even if we wont win another SB in his remaining career.

Sent from my LG-LS970 using Tapatalk

Dean Denton
11-04-2013, 05:27 AM
Agreed. I would rather not trade our first good QB since bradshaw and have to wait decades trying to find another. Even if we wont win another SB in his remaining career.

Sent from my LG-LS970 using Tapatalkthats what I mean. It's not so much about SB as it is just knowing you have a chance in every game. He's the only QB they have that I have ever felt that way about. Even today, with his int's we still had a chance and under Cowher we would have won.

NeilPatrickBanana
11-04-2013, 11:01 AM
Agreed. I would rather not trade our first good QB since bradshaw and have to wait decades trying to find another. Even if we wont win another SB in his remaining career.

Sent from my LG-LS970 using Tapatalk


considering that there are about 15 legit QBs in the league I wouldn't trade Ben. People too often become a prisoner of the moment and forget all the big games we lost before Ben. I'd like to stick with Ben until he decides to call it a career. I'm in no hurry to go back to the way it was the 25 years before Ben. Not to mention the chance of us winning the lotto in the draft seems unrealistic.


thats what I mean. It's not so much about SB as it is just knowing you have a chance in every game. He's the only QB they have that I have ever felt that way about. Even today, with his int's we still had a chance and under Cowher we would have won.

It's a different era... legit QBs come into it every year nowadays... it's not 25 years ago anymore... it's 2013. College QBs are in a completely different stratosphere today in terms of development, system play, etc.

Any time you move on from a true franchise QB you have to worry.... but you don't have to worry as if it's the 80s-90s

Ben WILL be gone some day... and with that in mind.... every time you have a chance to acquire a new franchise QB PROSPECT (top 5-10 pick this year)... you have to at least consider it...

Dean Denton
11-04-2013, 01:24 PM
It's a different era... legit QBs come into it every year nowadays... it's not 25 years ago anymore... it's 2013. College QBs are in a completely different stratosphere today in terms of development, system play, etc.

Any time you move on from a true franchise QB you have to worry.... but you don't have to worry as if it's the 80s-90s

Ben WILL be gone some day... and with that in mind.... every time you have a chance to acquire a new franchise QB PROSPECT (top 5-10 pick this year)... you have to at least consider it...if that we're true why do more then half the starting QB's in this league suck balls? Why did the rams try and get Farve out of retirement? There is no rash of QB's coming out of college or anywhere else that make me feel ok with giving up Ben.

ChucktownSteeler
11-04-2013, 01:28 PM
We could do a lot worse than Ben? I contend it is coaching.

Why are we never prepared?

NeilPatrickBanana
11-04-2013, 01:31 PM
if that we're true why do more then half the starting QB's in this league suck balls?

can you please name the 17 starting QBs who suck balls?



Why did the rams try and get Farve out of retirement?

uh...because their franchise QB blew an ACL?




There is no rash of QB's coming out of college or anywhere else that make me feel ok with giving up Ben.

it's a pretty deep QB class... there isn't a super elite guy (luck), but there is a lot of 1st round QB talent in this year's draft...

and you realistically have to question whether all the fixes this team needs can be made before Ben starts to decline...

Dean Denton
11-04-2013, 02:05 PM
That would take too long. If you don't already know, then me telling you would be a waste of time.

Speeed
11-04-2013, 02:14 PM
The fact that the OL sucks can be proven. Watch this Sunday's game. I am pretty sure that we won't be able to prove how Rogers would play on the Steelers. Pure speculation.



I love when people make this assertion, as if they do not do the same thing. It is a message board. You do get that right? Can anything be "proven"? Of course not. What you can do is evaluate and debate. Rodger's line has been nearly as bad/as bad/worse than the Steelers over the last few years. Rodgers can read and get the ball out more quickly and is more agile than Ben (Ben is stronger in the grasp). I think that is painfully obvious to most but feel free to provide evidence if you feel otherwise.



Agreed.



The QB is the most heavily scrutinized position on EVERY team. The Jags are AWFUL top to bottom but you do not see anti-[Insert player here] signs at the games, you see anti-Gabbert signs. They would even rather have TIM TEBOW! Even Peyton gets criticized for only one SB victory and Brady is taking heat.



Your statement above is as "speculative" and without "proof" as mine or any other. Again, we all do it.

It is the biggest offensive problem, IMO, but far from the only. I would also point out that our line has been terrible for a long time now, even when we were winning.



Mostly for off-field stuff, which he owns.



And this is where we agree 100 percent. I have been watching Steeler football since the 70's and lived through the QB desert between Bradshaw and Ben. Those that can only go back to Stewart, O'Donnell, and Maddox just do not understand what bad really is. Mark Malone, Bubby Brister, et al. It was like having Henne and Gabbert as your QB for a decade plus. We are stuck on 4 SB without Ben.

NeilPatrickBanana
11-04-2013, 03:05 PM
That would take too long. If you don't already know, then me telling you would be a waste of time.

I see

TarlsQtr
11-04-2013, 03:35 PM
The fact that the OL sucks can be proven. Watch this Sunday's game. I am pretty sure that we won't be able to prove how Rogers would play on the Steelers. Pure speculation.

But that is not what you said. It was:


The offensive line is the absolute keystone of problems with this team. Ben stands behind that gossimer curtain and throws the football. Fix the line, and we will start to win games.

That the O-Line "is the absolute keystone of problems" is not provable. And saying if we fix the line, we will win is purely speculative. We could have had the Seahawks OL (without injuries) yesterday and still would have been crushed. They would not have covered Gronk and Amendola.

WindyCityShaker
11-04-2013, 04:10 PM
When I say he isnt elite, I dont want a new QB. I would want them to draft one maybe next season to learn from Ben for a couple years aka Farve and Rodgers, not saying our future QB would be of Rodgers caliber, but I believe Bens best days with this "system" and "team" who puts there ego's first before winning are over with.


Rodgers was taught nothing by Favre, Brett was too worried the kid could take his job from the jump and decided not to help him.

That being said I don't know how much Ben could pass on to a young QB. The things that make Ben great really aren't "teachable".

WindyCityShaker
11-04-2013, 04:14 PM
No he wouldn't, because he'd only be allowed to throw screen passes.

I'm just now picking though all threads, so I'm sure this came up somewhere, I just haven't gotten to it yet. Are there some who don't think Haley called a great game yesterday?

coldrolled
11-04-2013, 04:22 PM
I'm just now picking though all threads, so I'm sure this came up somewhere, I just haven't gotten to it yet. Are there some who don't think Haley called a great game yesterday?

Haley's plays were good. Some drops, some over throws, plus almost 500 yards gained... he didn't tell Ben to fumble and throw int's

WindyCityShaker
11-04-2013, 04:30 PM
For those of you who think Ben isn't elite, would you trade him? And what would it take to get you to trade him? Would you trade him for two firsts?

Whether or not Ben is elite has nothing to do with whether or not I personally would trade Ben. I would trade Ben for 2 first rounders at minimum, again not because he's not elite, but because I do not believe in paying him 18 million dollars to be qb on a team that WILL NOT be able to compete during the next 3-4 years. I'm not saying because of Ben, but because of the team. We suck! Ben may get us 3 extra wins that maybe we shouldn't have but from both a personnel and financial landscape this team is not geared to seriously compete in the short term, paying Ben would be wasted money.

Would everyone rather see an extra 9 wins spread over the next 3 years, maybe even a <gasp> playoff appearance where we go one and out? If so just keep signing his check. If you want to see us competing for what we're all accustomed to, you make the decisions that put you in position to do so.

WindyCityShaker
11-04-2013, 04:33 PM
Haley's plays were good. Some drops, some over throws, plus almost 500 yards gained... he didn't tell Ben to fumble and throw int's

For what it's worth I thought it was a spot on game plan, save for maybe two instances on 3rd/4th and short where we just tried plowing right into the line.

NYCsteelersfan
11-04-2013, 07:28 PM
Elite: what a dumb term. Two seasons ago, "you couldn't spell elite without Eli." Well apparently you can. Who is elite? What is elite? Subjective nonsense. The numbers are the numbers. Roethlisberger didn't just win two SBs. His stats are all time. Barring early retirement, nearly all his stats will be amongst the top 10 all time. Some people will call him elite and others won't, but only an idiot or a bias douche would try to argue that he hasn't been one of the best QBs in the league since coming in and that he's anything less than great.

SuperSteelers
11-04-2013, 07:55 PM
Its really sad that Ben is in his prime and the team needs to reload to make another title run.

NYCsteelersfan
11-04-2013, 08:02 PM
Its really sad that Ben is in his prime and the team needs to reload to make another title run.

I think all the talk of blowing it up is just irrational talk from angry and frustrated fans. You don't blow a team up that has a franchise QB. It's unnecessary. This team is an offensive lineman, WR and head coach away from being back in the playoffs with ease. two of the three can easily be addressed given the team's potential draft position. The coaching is the only question mark.

NeilPatrickBanana
11-04-2013, 08:07 PM
Elite: what a dumb term. Two seasons ago, "you couldn't spell elite without Eli." Well apparently you can. Who is elite? What is elite? Subjective nonsense. The numbers are the numbers. Roethlisberger didn't just win two SBs. His stats are all time. Barring early retirement, nearly all his stats will be amongst the top 10 all time. Some people will call him elite and others won't, but only an idiot or a bias douche would try to argue that he hasn't been one of the best QBs in the league since coming in and that he's anything less than great.

Based on your criteria, Eli and Ben are equals... Odd that you would knock Eli and praise Ben when under your criteria of rings and career numbers... They are equals

Has anyone argued that Ben wasn't "one of the best" since he came in the league?... Especially since based on your definition of "worst", I can assume "one of the best" means like 12 QBs

Ouch. Lol.

NYCsteelersfan
11-04-2013, 08:39 PM
Based on your criteria, Eli and Ben are equals... Odd that you would knock Eli and praise Ben when under your criteria of rings and career numbers... They are equals

Has anyone argued that Ben wasn't "one of the best" since he came in the league?... Especially since based on your definition of "worst", I can assume "one of the best" means like 12 QBs

Ouch. Lol.

I wasn't knocking anyone. I was just demonstrating how most NFL fans like yourself are nothing more than feminine groupies. When the player is hot, he's elite. When he's not, it's because he never was. A few seasons ago, there were posters just like you on here (I'm actually pretty sure that one poster was you) telling everyone that Flacco and Ryan were better QBs than Roethlisberger.

Players should be evaluated over a lengthy span of time, not just based on one game or even one season's performance. That's why all time stats are important. It's kind of like forum members. You see, you're not just annoying sometimes; you're always annoying. You always have been. That's why several members dislike you and have you on ignore.

And what are you "ouching" about? Are you referring to my signature which quotes your idiocy? 21st in the league is the bottom third. The bottom third of a classroom would be those to receive grades of C, D and F. My "definition" of worst is pretty widely accepted. You can play on semantics all you like. You're still an idiot and you're still annoying.

It's really sad that because so many people on this forum have you on ignore that you're forced to constantly try and engage with the one person who will engage with you, despite the fact that he engages with insults and genuine dislike. Are you that lonely and pathetic?

NYCsteelersfan
11-04-2013, 08:48 PM
Odd that you would knock Eli and praise Ben when under your criteria of rings and career numbers... They are equals

I nearly forgot:

Eli Manning:

145 games. 4764 attempts and 2783 completions. 58.4 completion percentage. 221 TDs and 159 INTs. QB rating of 81.8

Roethlisberger:

135 games. 4070 attempts and 2574 completions. 63.2 completion percentage. 203 TDs and 117 INTs. QB rating of 92.4

Only a complete f^&king moron or an annoying troll would call these career numbers "equal."

NeilPatrickBanana
11-04-2013, 10:10 PM
I wasn't knocking anyone. I was just demonstrating how most NFL fans like yourself are nothing more than feminine groupies. When the player is hot, he's elite. When he's not, it's because he never was. A few seasons ago, there were posters just like you on here (I'm actually pretty sure that one poster was you) telling everyone that Flacco and Ryan were better QBs than Roethlisberger.

Wait... you go around defending any perceived slight to Ben... all over this board... and im the feminine groupie? lol that's a good one.

Youve had plenty of posts about how Eli is a fraud... you do it in your never ending quest to put Ben on a pedastal above his equals.

I never said Flacco is better than Ben.... I have said Steelers fans would regret lumping rings into the definition of Elite. Which clearly, people like yourself do... and you've been backstepping from that sort of false equivalency for the last 2 years. And I did say that Flacco's last post season run was good as anything ben ever did. and i did say that "presently"... meaning at that time... Flacco was playing better football than Ben....

I've offered my definitions. They are easy to find on this board. I have a definition for Elite. I've also offered a detailed definition of "ranking" or comparing QBs based on talent, stats, resume, etc. You've never engaged in those debates because you know how it would go... you aren't competent to speak objectively about the position... you need to rely on stats... and when the stats dont support your opinion you will work to marginalize the stats (bad oline, coaching, etc)

your aren't capable of debate, because you work backwards from a conclusion you already have. and all the debate is, is messing with the context to fit your preconceived position...

and because youre so insecure, you are incapable of allowing new information and perspective to alter your opinion



Players should be evaluated over a lengthy span of time, not just based on one game or even one season's performance. That's why all time stats are important.

players should continually be evaluated... looking at career numbers on their own, uncontextualized... will only lead you to silly conclusions or self fulfilling prophecies. longevity is a minor factor in the big picture... vinny testerverde is top 10 in yards.... kerry collins and drew bledsoe have more all time yards than montana, dave krieg has more than aikman... all time stats are a hall of fame number... and nothing else.


It's kind of like forum members. You see, you're not just annoying sometimes; you're always annoying. You always have been. That's why several members dislike you and have you on ignore.

i'm annoying to you, because i constantly refute your weak and circular arguments... you dont have me on ignore because you are too mentally soft to live with the idea that I could be replying to your silly arguments without you having the ability to call me a name.


And what are you "ouching" about? Are you referring to my signature which quotes your idiocy? 21st in the league is the bottom third. The bottom third of a classroom would be those to receive grades of C, D and F. My "definition" of worst is pretty widely accepted. You can play on semantics all you like. You're still an idiot and you're still annoying.

You understand that "best" and "worst" are antonyms... right? So, if you believe the bottom 3rd all qualify for worst, that means that the top 3rd all qualify as best. correct? So when you said Ben is one of the best QBs in the league... you mean he is one of the ~11 best QBs in the league, right?

consequently.... the "Best QBs of All Time" now includes the top 3rd of QBs of all time....

your definition is widely accepted??? what even makes you believe that? Do you just tell yourself things? tell yourself this..."i made a mistake... i wish i could take it back".

Last year a 7-9 record would qualify for among the bottom 3rd... so by your "widely accepted definition" New Orleans and Jacksonville were both among the worst teams in the league... is any of this dawning on you yet? i highly doubt it... your "bottom 3rd" argument is definitely one of the dumbest things you've said... wait, does that mean it has to be in the top 3rd of all the dumb things you've said, to qualify for "dumbest"?

You have quoted me in your signature... I think it's a good warning to people your capacity. The best part, is that you are now forced to keep it there... because admitting you're wrong is something you are incapable of. so everytime you post, you will remind others of your dimwit stature.


It's really sad that because so many people on this forum have you on ignore that you're forced to constantly try and engage with the one person who will engage with you, despite the fact that he engages with insults and genuine dislike. Are you that lonely and pathetic?

You can use the ignore feature anytime you like... until then you will continue to read my dissemination of your stupidity... it's not that hard since you only have 3 things to say... ever.

1. Ben is awesome
2. Tomlin sucks
3. Why is Neil so mean to me (it's because you're a dick)

Hey, do you still think Ben is more talented than Luck?

NeilPatrickBanana
11-04-2013, 10:36 PM
I nearly forgot:

Eli Manning:

145 games. 4764 attempts and 2783 completions. 58.4 completion percentage. 221 TDs and 159 INTs. QB rating of 81.8

Roethlisberger:

135 games. 4070 attempts and 2574 completions. 63.2 completion percentage. 203 TDs and 117 INTs. QB rating of 92.4

Only a complete f^&king moron or an annoying troll would call these career numbers "equal."

So in your opinion they are NOT equals... Ben is better... because he throws less passes, less TDs, less INTs, less yards... and manages a 10 point higher QB rating? that's essentially your argument... QB Rating... that's it...

Eli and Ben have identical career QBR... but I know you've already written off more advanced stats like QBR...

Passer Rating is an entirely meaningless statistic.... it's a vastly outdated statistic that doesn't represent football performance. It simply measures aggregate stats without context. Of course the draw back with QBR is that it uses subjective data common fans dont have access to (distance the ball travels, whether the QB was under pressure when a pass was thrown, what impact a play has on win probability, etc). Largely, cheerleader fans like yourself HATE QBR... it's too big for them to grasp. So they continue to rely on a stupid volume statistic like Passer Rating which really doesn't tell us any more than overall stats do. Is QBR perfect... hell no... see Tim Tebow. It has flaws, and thats something to be aware of... but in a large scope (years of performance), it tells a MUCH more accurate story as to a QBs value and performance. Unlike Passer rating which is a number that essentially just summarizes comps/yards/tds/ints.

what would it take for your to accept that QBR is a far far better statistic than Passer Rating? You've gone on your "ESPN Stat" rant before, and it's been pointed out to you that the QBR was by Dr. Dean Oliver Ph.D in statistical applications... i mean, can't you defer to a guy like that?

Dean Denton
11-04-2013, 10:48 PM
I see Ok, to be fair I'll give you the ones that I don't think are crap cuz it's a much shorter list. Ben, Brady, Rogers, Peyton, Eli, Luck, Bree's, Wilson, Rivers. There are a couple I'm still on the fence with, Ryan, Dalton, Stafford and Cutler. The rest of the QBs I think are crap and would not want them anywhere near my team. And that includes RG3, who will never win a Super Bowl and most likely will be out of the league in a couple years. To me he's nothing more than the new Vick who IMO has been the most over-rated QB ever...

Big T
11-04-2013, 11:27 PM
Ok, to be fair I'll give you the ones that I don't think are crap cuz it's a much shorter list. Ben, Brady, Rogers, Peyton, Eli, Luck, Bree's, Wilson, Rivers. There are a couple I'm still on the fence with, Ryan, Dalton, Stafford and Cutler. The rest of the QBs I think are crap and would not want them anywhere near my team. And that includes RG3, who will never win a Super Bowl and most likely will be out of the league in a couple years. To me he's nothing more than the new Vick who IMO has been the most over-rated QB ever...

So he's the new Vick because he's black and can run fast? Because those are about the only two characteristics they have in common. Vick was a running back who could throw the ball. He was horribly inaccurate. Vick had character issues and never showed that he had the ability to read defenses. RGIII is a highly intelligent, high character guy that can make every throw. He just happens to have the ability to run. It's a lazy comparison.

NeilPatrickBanana
11-04-2013, 11:36 PM
So he's the new Vick because he's black and can run fast? Because those are about the only two characteristics they have in common. Vick was a running back who could throw the ball. He was horribly inaccurate. Vick had character issues and never showed that he had the ability to read defenses. RGIII is a highly intelligent, high character guy that can make every throw. He just happens to have the ability to run. It's a lazy comparison.

agreed.

the only thing that will hold RGIII back is whether his body can survive his style... or whether he can modify his game quickly enough to last...

talent wise... he is not comparable to Vick anymore than Ben is comparable to Jeff George

JoeSteelerFan
11-04-2013, 11:47 PM
Wow, some of you really run wild with some crazy opinions in the past few weeks. Did it ever occur to you that Ben Roeth may .... just may ... have very little to work with right now? Do you honestly think that he just forgot how to be a QB overnight?

- Ben has no credible O-line to work with. These bumble heads have no idea how this new Zone Blocking scheme works and they lack the technique to pull it off in a year. Personally, I don't think they'll pull it off in 3 years which is generally how long it takes to implement a new scheme.

- Antonio Brown is and always will be a #2 WR .... right now he masquerading as a #1 and it's not fooling anybody. I'm not knocking Brown because aside from his unnecessary showmanship, he's a talented WR , just not a #1 WR. When Brown finally gets into his #2 role, his value will skyrocket because he'll be in the job that was made for him. If Ben has already stated on a number of occasions now that he prefers a big, physical bodied WR as his primary target, as my franchise QB in the midst of his storied career, you bet your *** that I would be out drafting the next Mega-tron for him. Hint, hint Mr Rooney.

- Sanders is purely a slot WR who has no business lining up in the flanker spot.

- Heath has been out for the majority of the year and the Steelers FO left Ben hanging without a credible pass catching TE. This was a truly bone headed move by Colbert. Heath is now ... AT BEST ..... 75 percent healthy. Quite honestly, after an injury like the one he sustained, that may be all he gets up to this season. I'm amazed at Heath's work ethic and determination to get back in there, but I question the Steelers returning him as soon as they did. Personally, I think the Steelers panic'd when they say how bad the offense was without him.

- Bens game has also been affected by this "musical running back" game that Tomlin has been employing this season. It seems he finally settled in on Bell, but Bell is rookie. While he may be showing very good promise, lest we not forget that he is only a rookie ... a kid. He will be making rookie mistakes behind a very, very, very bad offensive line. In fact, I'm amazed that Bell can even pick up anything close to the yards he's been gaining behind this **** pile.

- Ben is being adversely affected by Haley. The Haley experiment is not working. They may pretend like all is well between the two of them, but I'm certainly not buying it and I doubt many of you are either. I'm pretty good at reading body language and I clearly see that Ben has no respect for Haley. It's time to end this train wreck.

-

Dean Denton
11-04-2013, 11:51 PM
Lol, no I think he's the new Vick because he's made of glass, and too small. But hey, nice job tryin to paint me in a negative light.

Dean Denton
11-04-2013, 11:52 PM
And his style of play last year was very similar to Vick in Atlanta. That's what I saw. But I still stand by what I said, RG3 will never win a Super Bowl and isn't long for this league. He will get broke...

NYCsteelersfan
11-04-2013, 11:53 PM
So in your opinion they are NOT equals... Ben is better... because he throws less passes, less TDs, less INTs, less yards... and manages a 10 point higher QB rating? that's essentially your argument... QB Rating... that's it...

Eli and Ben have identical career QBR... but I know you've already written off more advanced stats like QBR...

Passer Rating is an entirely meaningless statistic.... it's a vastly outdated statistic that doesn't represent football performance. It simply measures aggregate stats without context. Of course the draw back with QBR is that it uses subjective data common fans dont have access to (distance the ball travels, whether the QB was under pressure when a pass was thrown, what impact a play has on win probability, etc). Largely, cheerleader fans like yourself HATE QBR... it's too big for them to grasp. So they continue to rely on a stupid volume statistic like Passer Rating which really doesn't tell us any more than overall stats do. Is QBR perfect... hell no... see Tim Tebow. It has flaws, and thats something to be aware of... but in a large scope (years of performance), it tells a MUCH more accurate story as to a QBs value and performance. Unlike Passer rating which is a number that essentially just summarizes comps/yards/tds/ints.

what would it take for your to accept that QBR is a far far better statistic than Passer Rating? You've gone on your "ESPN Stat" rant before, and it's been pointed out to you that the QBR was by Dr. Dean Oliver Ph.D in statistical applications... i mean, can't you defer to a guy like that?

The stats speak for themselves. Roethlisberger has thrown nearly 700 less passes and only 18 less TDs than Manning, but 41 less INTs. Eli has throws for one TD per 21.6 pass attempts while Roethlisberger has thrown a TD every 20 pass attempts. Eli throws an INT every 30 pass attempts while Roethlisberger has thrown one ever 35th pass attempt. Roethlisberger has a 5 percent greater completion percentage than Eli. All those objective numerical statistics than any human being can calculate gives Roethlisberger a nearly 10 point higher QB rating.

lol...QBR. Anyone other than d^^k suckers like you even use it? Didn't ESPN abandon it after that embarrassing situation where somehow Tebow had a higher rating than Rodgers even though Rodgers was like 20 for 30 for 400 yard and two TDs while Tebow went 4-10 for 80 yards and 1 TD?

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/blog/shutdown_corner/post/espns-total-qbr-stat-makes-as-much-sense-to-aaron-rodgers-as-it-does-to-me?urn=nfl,wp9534

NYCsteelersfan
11-04-2013, 11:58 PM
You can use the ignore feature anytime you like... until then you will continue to read my dissemination of your stupidity... it's not that hard since you only have 3 things to say... ever.

Listen, I don't have you on ignore because this forum sucks and no one likes coming here anymore because of annoying trolls like you. But the mods like you because you're a company man like them that refuses to criticize Tomlin and you suck the mods off, which they enjoy. I figure by making a fool of you, I make the forum more inviting to those who have been put off by the way this place is run.

Stop wasting time explaining why Eli is better than Roethlisberger. Big T has a big load for you.

Dean Denton
11-05-2013, 12:14 AM
ESPN is big on QBR, and most of them are smart enough to use the eye test too. I understand QBR, can't explain it in detail on an iPad, but in this new arena league NFL it fits. Tebow only ruled that stat the last 5 min of his 8 or 9 games. And to be fair, the eye test said he kicked *** the last 5 min of those games too.

NeilPatrickBanana
11-05-2013, 12:35 AM
The stats speak for themselves. Roethlisberger has thrown nearly 700 less passes and only 18 less TDs than Manning, but 41 less INTs. Eli has throws for one TD per 21.6 pass attempts while Roethlisberger has thrown a TD every 20 pass attempts. Eli throws an INT every 30 pass attempts while Roethlisberger has thrown one ever 35th pass attempt. Roethlisberger has a 5 percent greater completion percentage than Eli. All those objective numerical statistics than any human being can calculate gives Roethlisberger a nearly 10 point higher QB rating.

Do the stats speak for themselves? Except when they don't paint Ben in a favorable light... then the stats don't speak for themselves anymore... right? At that point, it's the offensive lines fault... bad coaching... or a litany of other excuses....



lol...QBR. Anyone other than d^^k suckers like you even use it? Didn't ESPN abandon it after that embarrassing situation where somehow Tebow had a higher rating than Rodgers even though Rodgers was like 20 for 30 for 400 yard and two TDs while Tebow went 4-10 for 80 yards and 1 TD?

anecdotes and outliers are the argument of fools... but if you enjoy them, i'll submit that Chad Pennington has a higher career passer rating than Dan Marino and Brett Favre... good stat....

Advanced statistics, in all sports, are leaving elementary accumulation stats in the dust...

NeilPatrickBanana
11-05-2013, 12:38 AM
Listen, I don't have you on ignore because this forum sucks and no one likes coming here anymore because of annoying trolls like you. But the mods like you because you're a company man like them that refuses to criticize Tomlin and you suck the mods off, which they enjoy. I figure by making a fool of you, I make the forum more inviting to those who have been put off by the way this place is run.

Stop wasting time explaining why Eli is better than Roethlisberger. Big T has a big load for you.

why do you come to a forum that sucks?

I think this forum is terrific, it has quality debates among knowledgable fans and it also has entertaining clowns like you...

side note... no need to mischaracterize my statements, most of this board has a reading comprehension level above 2nd grade

Dean Denton
11-05-2013, 03:03 AM
Either way I gave you a list without giving you a list of more than 17 starting QB'S that suck balls in the NFL. Well, I wouldn't want them and the ones not on my list I don't put much stock in to carry a franchise. Not like the mighty Ben. However, I'm afraid Ben is going to move on to Arizona to be with BA and Fitzgerald to try and save his career because this franchise seems to be light years away from turning things around. Unless we can get 7 or 8 first round picks. This franchise is finished....it was a nice run though. Who knows, maybe in time we'll get a real coach like Gruden. or Cowher will take pity on us and come back to build up the roster for the next Barry Switzer to take us to a couple Super Bowls. So sad that the steelers have become the laughing stock of the NFL with the likes of Jacksonville and Tampa bay.

LatrobePA
11-05-2013, 07:55 AM
An elite QB don't stand in the pocket and take sacks in key moments but also most elite QB's have an elite o line.

steelchamp204
11-05-2013, 10:52 AM
An elite QB don't stand in the pocket and take sacks in key moments but also most elite QB's have an elite o line.

:hide:. buT, BUT BUT BUT BUT BUT Ben makes plays by holding onto the ball, He shakes LB and DL off like dandruff. This oline blows, but when Ben has a good game the oline is never mentioned lol

Get7With7
11-05-2013, 12:50 PM
:hide:. buT, BUT BUT BUT BUT BUT Ben makes plays by holding onto the ball, He shakes LB and DL off like dandruff. This oline blows, but when Ben has a good game the oline is never mentioned lol

Could always throw more screen passes.

Goodfrom55
11-05-2013, 10:19 PM
Late to the party here, but I would like to see one of the so called Elite QB's do what Ben has done year after year, beating after beating behind this Patchwork O-line. Only one who comes close is Rodgers. Brady, both Mannings, and Brees would all be out of the league by now.

Is Ben elite? I don't know, but there aren't many QB's in the league I would rather have over him. In fact, there might be 3 - Peyton, Brady, and Luck.

Dean Denton
11-05-2013, 10:24 PM
Late to the party here, but I would like to see one of the so called Elite QB's do what Ben has done year after year, beating after beating behind this Patchwork O-line. Only one who comes close is Rodgers. Brady, both Mannings, and Brees would all be out of the league by now.

Is Ben elite? I don't know, but there aren't many QB's in the league I would rather have over him. In fact, there might be 3 - Peyton, Brady, and Luck.
That's funny. I have said the same thing many times. In fact people may think we're the same person so don't start trolling they'll think it's both of us...lol yes Rogers is the only one that I think too. Luck or Wilson could make it work too. Still question Wilson's throwing ability though. Not sold yet. Great legs though.

WindyCityShaker
11-06-2013, 03:23 PM
Late to the party here, but I would like to see one of the so called Elite QB's do what Ben has done year after year, beating after beating behind this Patchwork O-line. Only one who comes close is Rodgers. Brady, both Mannings, and Brees would all be out of the league by now.

Is Ben elite? I don't know, but there aren't many QB's in the league I would rather have over him. In fact, there might be 3 - Peyton, Brady, and Luck.

So the one quarterback that you feel could do the same as Ben behind this line.....you wouldn't take that QB?

Also what are you saying, that all those other QB's are injury prone? As much crap as everyone gives Brady because they feel refs go out of there way to protect a guy like that, he's one tough SOB.

Peyton is smart enough to play a style that allows him not to take the hits, though he's played through injury before. Eli and Brees would be the two who I would say have had the best pass blocking lines, historically speaking, but they still take hits, not as many as Ben, but come on they're professional QB's. HOWEVER I can count on ONE HAND how many games the combination of the two have missed due to injury since 2004. They're not capable of taking punishment? Maybe they just play the game smarter, could that be possible?

Why does this always have to turn into a no one could be as good behind this line conversation? You may very well be right but it's such a subjective statement that there will never be ANY way of proving true or false. We will NEVER have one of those QB's.

Ben is an awesome QB, stop making it out as if someone is saying differently. If he doesn't fit into someone's definition of elite, who cares........I assure you that Ben could care less. If you're trying to say that Ben can do today what he did years ago that would be foolish. Blame it on the number of times his head's been scrambled, or on the oline, or on his lack of weapons, all that would allow your memory of an elite Ben to exist without acknowledging what is true for EVERY player in the NFL, at some point their skills begin to deteriorate.

Black@Gold Forever32
11-06-2013, 03:47 PM
Late to the party here, but I would like to see one of the so called Elite QB's do what Ben has done year after year, beating after beating behind this Patchwork O-line. Only one who comes close is Rodgers. Brady, both Mannings, and Brees would all be out of the league by now.

Is Ben elite? I don't know, but there aren't many QB's in the league I would rather have over him. In fact, there might be 3 - Peyton, Brady, and Luck.

I said it for years about Ben and his lack of pass protection he consistently had his entire career for the most part......But I always get accused that I'm making excuses for Ben and blah blah blah.......

Get7With7
11-06-2013, 04:00 PM
I said it for years about Ben and his lack of pass protection he consistently had his entire career for the most part......But I always get accused that I'm making excuses for Ben and blah blah blah.......

Wouldn't matter who's the QB of the Steelers. He'd get sacked a lot and would only be allowed to throw screen passes. Only when the team is down by 14 points can they start throwing down field.

Goodfrom55
11-06-2013, 09:24 PM
I said it for years about Ben and his lack of pass protection he consistently had his entire career for the most part......But I always get accused that I'm making excuses for Ben and blah blah blah.......

I think I just did too, lol. There is a lot of stuff about Ben's game that makes you shake your head, and yet there is also a lot about Ben's game which makes you shake your head in a good way. Those other QB's do not get hit nearly as much as Ben does. Now, is it partly becuase he refuses to give up on a play and holds onto the ball to long? Absolutely. The only skill that I can claerly identify that Ben is losing is his scrambling. He got slow. His arm is equally as strong now as it was before, he's more cerebral, and a better leader. Maintaining my first stance, I would take Ben over any of those guys except for possibly the 3 QB's I mentioned in my previous post. That said, I don't know if they could withstand the beating year after year either. Is he elite? TO ME, YES.

Goodfrom55
11-06-2013, 09:24 PM
Wouldn't matter who's the QB of the Steelers. He'd get sacked a lot and would only be allowed to throw screen passes. Only when the team is down by 14 points can they start throwing down field.

Only when he calls his own plays.

DanRooney
11-06-2013, 10:09 PM
Late to the party here, but I would like to see one of the so called Elite QB's do what Ben has done year after year, beating after beating behind this Patchwork O-line. Only one who comes close is Rodgers. Brady, both Mannings, and Brees would all be out of the league by now.

Is Ben elite? I don't know, but there aren't many QB's in the league I would rather have over him. In fact, there might be 3 - Peyton, Brady, and Luck.

Brees and Rodgers?

steelchamp204
11-07-2013, 12:32 AM
Brees and Rodgers?

I would take Brees/Manning/Brady any day over Ben. No matter who there Oline is, they can make the right adjustments before the ball is even snapped. It's called reading defenses and calling there own audibles. Somthing Ben needs to do more of himself, but they won't allow iw.

Dean Denton
11-07-2013, 05:01 AM
I know those guys can read a defense, get the ball out fast, call audibles and know what adjustments to make but good luck getting the ball out from their backs. They would be killed. They have never suffered with a line as bad as this. Rogers could because he's not a stationary target like thoughts other three. They would never finish a season. Brady would have been out of the league 4 years ago.

Nolrog
11-07-2013, 07:29 AM
I would take Brees/Manning/Brady any day over Ben.

Ben has as many SB wins as Brees and Manning (you're talking Peyton of course) combined.

NeilPatrickBanana
11-07-2013, 10:14 AM
Ben has as many SB wins as Brees and Manning (you're talking Peyton of course) combined.

so what? are you really implying that super bowl wins would determine which QB you would prefer?

Joe Flacco has more super bowl wins than Dan Marino...

Nolrog
11-07-2013, 10:19 AM
so what? are you really implying that super bowl wins would determine which QB you would prefer?

You can't discount the fact that he wins and more than the guys preferred. If you put Brees on the Steelers behind those OLs, even the ones that won teh SB, you can't tell me he'd have won. Peyton as well.

NeilPatrickBanana
11-07-2013, 10:37 AM
You can't discount the fact that he wins and more than the guys preferred.

yes you can...



If you put Brees on the Steelers behind those OLs, even the ones that won teh SB, you can't tell me he'd have won. Peyton as well.

yawn... boring and speculative... lacking context

WindyCityShaker
11-07-2013, 11:22 AM
yes you can...

Oh stop it before we have to start looking at the qb stats from those games......like Randle El throwing the only TD in XL.

steelchamp204
11-07-2013, 11:59 AM
You can't discount the fact that he wins and more than the guys preferred. If you put Brees on the Steelers behind those OLs, even the ones that won teh SB, you can't tell me he'd have won. Peyton as well.

You put Brees/Manning/Brady on the Steelers Oline in the past, given the hell of the defense they had. They would have 3 rings by now, Brady probably 4. Manning would have improved the Oline on this team, as I stated earlier, he can adjust quickly at the line, Brady doesnt have a defense this season and his Oline isnt as good as what they've been in years past let alone having bums at the WR position. What's his record this year?

LatrobePA
11-07-2013, 12:20 PM
Was Ben ever elite?

NeilPatrickBanana
11-07-2013, 01:20 PM
Was Ben ever elite?

depends on your definition of elite.

LatrobePA
11-07-2013, 01:22 PM
depends on your definition of elite.

Right. The term elite is flung around too much if you ask me. IMO there is only 2 or 3 true elite QB's in the league right now.

Ben is a warrior but not elite nor has he been.

NeilPatrickBanana
11-07-2013, 01:31 PM
Right. The term elite is flung around too much if you ask me. IMO there is only 2 or 3 true elite QB's in the league right now.

Ben is a warrior but not elite nor has he been.

i hold the same opinion

it's fair to admit that i also tossed around the Elite label too loosely after Ben won that 2nd super bowl... i've reconsidered my definition over time. And I think it's much more accurate to use to describe the highest possible level of TALENT.... and not team accolades or the collection of statistics... sure that makes it a very subjective term... but im fine with that.

Peyton, Brady and Rodgers are the only elites... there are plenty of other great franchise QBs... some better than others... from Brees to Ben to non super bowl winning talents as well... but the elites stand alone.

NYCsteelersfan
11-07-2013, 01:48 PM
You put Brees/Manning/Brady on the Steelers Oline in the past, given the hell of the defense they had. They would have 3 rings by now, Brady probably 4.

2009: Colts go 14-2 and have the 8th best defense in the league (Steelers have the 12th best)
2008: Colts go 12-4 and have the 7th best defense in the league (Steelers have the #1 defense)
2007: Colts go 13-3 and have the best defense in the league (Steelers have the second best defense)
2006: Colts go 12-4 and have the 23rd best defense in the league (Steelers have the 11th/12th best defense)
2005: Colts go 14-2 and have the second best defense in the league (Steelers have the 3rd/4th best defense)

So, in 5 seasons where Manning was lighting up the stat board and had a top 10 defense for four of those seasons, as we all know, he won only one SB. That pretty much makes your above statement look completely and utterly false.

The funny part is that the year Manning finally didn't choke and actually led his team to a SB victory was the season where the defense was one of the worst.

NYCsteelersfan
11-07-2013, 01:56 PM
Ben has as many SB wins as Brees and Manning (you're talking Peyton of course) combined.

I mean if you would've asked a Colts fan if they would've preferred an "elite" Manning who called pass plays on the goal line 90 percent of the time to pad his stats while one of the best running backs in the league was left in the backfield holding his dik in his hand, but then managed to choke in the playoffs year after year, OR if they would've preferred a non-elite QB who would've played just as well in the postseason against good teams as he did in the regular season against inferior teams and actually won more than 1 Superbowl, you can bet that every Colts fan would ask for the latter.

NeilPatrickBanana
11-07-2013, 01:57 PM
2009: Colts go 14-2 and have the 8th best defense in the league (Steelers have the 12th best)
2008: Colts go 12-4 and have the 7th best defense in the league (Steelers have the #1 defense)
2007: Colts go 13-3 and have the best defense in the league (Steelers have the second best defense)
2006: Colts go 12-4 and have the 23rd best defense in the league (Steelers have the 11th/12th best defense)
2005: Colts go 14-2 and have the second best defense in the league (Steelers have the 3rd/4th best defense)

So, in 5 seasons where Manning was lighting up the stat board and had a top 10 defense for four of those seasons, as we all know, he won only one SB. That pretty much makes your above statement look completely and utterly false.

The funny part is that the year Manning finally didn't choke and actually led his team to a SB victory was the season where the defense was one of the worst.

You would be doing yourself a favor to consider the impact a dominant Manning led offense has on the performance of a team's defense...

kind of like how Denver's defense went from giving up 24.4 pts per game in 2011... to 18.1 pts per game in 2012...

NeilPatrickBanana
11-07-2013, 02:00 PM
I mean if you would've asked a Colts fan if they would've preferred an "elite" Manning who called pass plays on the goal line 90 percent of the time to pad his stats while one of the best running backs in the league was left in the backfield holding his dik in his hand, but then managed to choke in the playoffs year after year, OR if they would've preferred a non-elite QB who would've played just as well in the postseason against good teams as he did in the regular season against inferior teams and actually won more than 1 Superbowl, you can bet that every Colts fan would ask for the latter.

If Ben played in Indy all those years, they probably would've just complained about how bad the oline was

NYCsteelersfan
11-07-2013, 02:00 PM
Oh stop it before we have to start looking at the qb stats from those games......like Randle El throwing the only TD in XL.

Only second year QB to win a SB? First QB to win 3 road playoffs games to get to the SB? And what were his stats in those 3 road playoff games? 49-72 for 680 yards with 8 TDs and 1 INT? Yeah let's just ignore those numbers.

NYCsteelersfan
11-07-2013, 02:14 PM
You would be doing yourself a favor to consider the impact a dominant Manning led offense has on the performance of a team's defense...

kind of like how Denver's defense went from giving up 24.4 pts per game in 2011... to 18.1 pts per game in 2012...

Once again, the stats prove a point and you want to skew them to favor your personal stance.

You essentially want to give credit to Manning for the Colts defense under Tony Dungy and one of the best defensive players of the decade. But other defenses, like the Steelers, stand on their own merit without any affect from their QB's play?

Steelers defense was ranked 15th in 2003 and 1st in 2004. I guess I would do myself a favor to consider the impact that a dominant Roethlisberger led offense had on the performance of that team's defense.

You would do yourself a favor to not always try to argue points that counter your own even when there is nothing to argue. It only makes you the annoying fool that many on this board dislike.

NYCsteelersfan
11-07-2013, 02:16 PM
If Ben played in Indy all those years, they probably would've just complained about how bad the oline was

Or they would've been happy to have a QB that went to the playoffs 6 times, went to the SB 3 of those times and won 2 of them rather than having a QB who went to the playoffs 11 times, went to the SB 2 of those times and won only once.

TarlsQtr
11-07-2013, 02:39 PM
Only second year QB to win a SB? First QB to win 3 road playoffs games to get to the SB? And what were his stats in those 3 road playoff games? 49-72 for 680 yards with 8 TDs and 1 INT? Yeah let's just ignore those numbers.

But here is your problem, when you use such subjective stats (subjective in that they are cherry picked) as that.

Montana did not accomplish any of those. Unitas did not. Nor did Elway. If you are arguing that these somehow make Ben better than Peyton, you must also be arguing that Ben is better than Montana, Unitas, and Elway if you are logically consistent.

If by some miracle you were not laughed out of a room when you say Ben is better than Peyton, then you would definitely be laughed out of a room if Montana, Unitas, and Elway were brought up.

TarlsQtr
11-07-2013, 02:45 PM
The definition of elite is a good conversation to have. there are even tiers of members of the Hall of Fame. For instance, is there any doubt that Ruth is more "elite" than Willie Stargell?

Unitas, Montana, Elway, yes, Peyton, Brady, Rodgers are top tier HOFers. Ben is a HOFer but does not belong in the same conversation. You can make the argument that any HOFer is "elite", however, there then has to be a way to differentiate between the Babe Ruth/Henry Aaron tier (Montana) and the Willie Stargell tier (Ben).

NYCsteelersfan
11-07-2013, 03:31 PM
But here is your problem, when you use such subjective stats (subjective in that they are cherry picked) as that.

Montana did not accomplish any of those. Unitas did not. Nor did Elway. If you are arguing that these somehow make Ben better than Peyton, you must also be arguing that Ben is better than Montana, Unitas, and Elway if you are logically consistent.

If by some miracle you were not laughed out of a room when you say Ben is better than Peyton, then you would definitely be laughed out of a room if Montana, Unitas, and Elway were brought up.

That's not what I was arguing at all. The stats posted were meant to provide balance to the previous posters "cherry-picked" stats that Roethlisberger did not perform well in his first SB.

Next time read the entire thread before throwing your two cents in like a child wandering into the middle of a movie and not having any clue as to what's going on.

WindyCityShaker
11-07-2013, 04:01 PM
Only second year QB to win a SB? First QB to win 3 road playoffs games to get to the SB? And what were his stats in those 3 road playoff games? 49-72 for 680 yards with 8 TDs and 1 INT? Yeah let's just ignore those numbers.

One day everyone will pause, take a breath and realize that football is a team sport. You started the "Super Bowl Wins" conversation again. I was just pointing out that while Ben was QB on those winners, he did not do it himself. XL 123 yards, 0 TD and 1 int. Sounds like he pulled that one out for us.

XLIII Ben puts together a historical drive capped with a legendary TD pass. Clutch, Money, use any adjective you wish......we still needed a defensive TD to win the game.

Ben's 3 Super Bowls combined 642-3-5
His opposing QB's combined 954-7-2

I love Ben, LOVE Ben, but he's not the end all and be all of quarterbacks.

WindyCityShaker
11-07-2013, 04:08 PM
First QB to win 3 road playoffs games to get to the SB?

Yes he was first.


Repeated 2 years later by Eli.


If the colts weren't all but assured to win their division who knows, maybe Luck could have attempted it this year. I don't know..........maybe the league is evolving?

NeilPatrickBanana
11-07-2013, 05:20 PM
The definition of elite is a good conversation to have. there are even tiers of members of the Hall of Fame. For instance, is there any doubt that Ruth is more "elite" than Willie Stargell?

Unitas, Montana, Elway, yes, Peyton, Brady, Rodgers are top tier HOFers. Ben is a HOFer but does not belong in the same conversation. You can make the argument that any HOFer is "elite", however, there then has to be a way to differentiate between the Babe Ruth/Henry Aaron tier (Montana) and the Willie Stargell tier (Ben).

i agree with myself on this

NeilPatrickBanana
11-07-2013, 05:25 PM
Once again, the stats prove a point and you want to skew them to favor your personal stance.

I don't think context = skewing


You essentially want to give credit to Manning for the Colts defense under Tony Dungy and one of the best defensive players of the decade. But other defenses, like the Steelers, stand on their own merit without any affect from their QB's play?

yes, I think an "elite"QB like Manning, who completely controls a game, every sunday has an impact on a defenses statistics... much more so than great "second tier" QBs like Ben.


Steelers defense was ranked 15th in 2003 and 1st in 2004. I guess I would do myself a favor to consider the impact that a dominant Roethlisberger led offense had on the performance of that team's defense.

these conclusions are not static. You would draw that conclusion if you thought Ben and Peyton were equals. That is not my opinion.

NeilPatrickBanana
11-07-2013, 05:27 PM
Or they would've been happy to have a QB that went to the playoffs 6 times, went to the SB 3 of those times and won 2 of them rather than having a QB who went to the playoffs 11 times, went to the SB 2 of those times and won only once.

The implication that Ben would have the same results in Indy as he had in Pittsburgh...

Indy went from a year to year contender... to winning like 2 games when Peyton went down... where as Pittsburgh's backups have a pretty respectable record over Ben's career.

NeilPatrickBanana
11-07-2013, 05:29 PM
Ben's 3 Super Bowls combined 642-3-5
His opposing QB's combined 954-7-2



ouch... oh wait... i mean, stop cherry picking :lol:

Dean Denton
11-07-2013, 05:42 PM
I really don't know what makes a QB elite, but I know that as a fan I have loved having Ben. Do I think there are QBs that do things better then Ben? Yes. But I also think Ben has won with a front line that I don't think some of the great QBs could have. Bens a special player and I wouldn't trade him for someone who puts up better fantasy numbers. Ben has given us something we haven't had in years, and that's a chance to win every game we are in.

WindyCityShaker
11-07-2013, 06:37 PM
I really don't know what makes a QB elite, but I know that as a fan I have loved having Ben.
This


Do I think there are QBs that do things better then Ben? Yes. But I also think Ben has won with a front line that I don't think some of the great QBs could have.
Agreed. MOST QB's couldn't have, no one disputes that, but there are a few who would have survived and been just as effective.


Bens a special player and I wouldn't trade him for someone who puts up better fantasy numbers. Ben has given us something we haven't had in years, and that's a chance to win every game we are in.
You're right with Ben we do have a chance to win every game, but that could be said for a select few other QB's as well. That is ALL anyone is suggesting.

What I wish would happen is that everyone see this isn't a Ben is elite/Ben sucks conversation; this is a Ben is an elite/Ben is not elite QB conversation. No one thinks he sucks. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and honestly the fact that there's even conversation should prove BEN IS PRETTY DAMN GOOD.

Dean Denton
11-07-2013, 06:42 PM
If that's the case then, and based on the fact that most would agree if Ben is behind center you have a chance to win every game then I would say he's elite. If anything he's elite in ways others can't be.

WindyCityShaker
11-07-2013, 06:53 PM
If anything he's elite in ways others can't be.

YES!!!!!and others are elite in ways Ben can't be. It all depends on one's definition of elite, and that there is the crux of this whole dilemma.
I myself would subscribe to the definitions that NPB posted, maybe touched up slightly. That definition isn't for everyone, and that's ok.

Dean Denton
11-08-2013, 06:13 PM
My definition is a player being able to pass that eye test that tells you he can win any game he plays in. That he can win when it matters most. When he can make they entire team believe that he can win with 80 yards 2 min to go down by 6. That's our QB to me. So I think he's elite. Sexy as hell too.

BubbyBlister
11-18-2013, 01:51 AM
Got to give Ben credit and played a great game today. No turnovers and mental mistakes and threw the ball away when he needed to. This is the Ben I missed! Ben can be still the man!