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View Full Version : Do YOU want DL back?



steelchamp204
12-24-2012, 11:57 AM
I say no. I am ready to move on, I think this defense is going to be going into the youth movement here in the next season or 2 anyway. I know DL has had the number 1 defense this season, but it was more of a deceptive #1 defense. There were times where the defense looked great like yesterday but then there were so many times it frustrated the hell out of us like the Raiders game.

The lack of turnovers and sack/splash plays this season is what the defense didnt prove enough of. The lack of playing press coverage most of the season until last week in dallas when there were 2 miutes left and again, the game against the Bengals.

I am thankful for everything DL has done with this team, I really am. Im just ready to move on and see what the future of the defense is going to be without him.

The excuse is, well it takes 2 years to learn the system. Well in todays pass happy league, we need the young guys in the to make a difference even if they struggle a little bit. Im not sure of any other team who doesnt sit there rookies (1st or 2nd round picks) as much as the steelers do. This falls on DL and Tomlin.

Black@Gold Forever32
12-24-2012, 12:11 PM
Dick LeBeau is a true legend of the game but nobody lasts forever.......I think its way past time for him to go......People will bring up the fact about the number 1 defense but I think we all know this is far from one of the best Steelers defenses.......Plus a fresh perspective could do some good.....BA was forced out so its time to force the old man out to.....

BLACKandGOLD
12-24-2012, 12:14 PM
I never thought I would say this but I just think its time to move on and bring in a younger coach to start a new era of Steelers defense. Dick is a legend and will always be but like others have said, he can't coach forever


Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk app

JenZwain
12-24-2012, 12:17 PM
No. His stats may be great but at the end of the day wins and losses count more then stats. He has not shown that he is willing to adjust and put his players in the best position to help the team. He has become predictable and other teams know it, they exploit it, and we lose.

FlatsSteeler
12-24-2012, 12:20 PM
The Question is rhetorical he is gone after this season.......One of the Greatest "DC" of all time but he has past his Prime.....

Crash
12-24-2012, 12:25 PM
No, go away.

Don't want Butler either. The defense needs a new voice.

If Tomlin is allowed to make this hire? IMO it will be Raheem Morris.

Rhys Lightning 63
12-24-2012, 12:27 PM
This isn't a player we are talking about here, there is no maximum age for a coach to stay in the game, he is at no rick because of the game, he could keep going up until the day he dies

Crash
12-24-2012, 12:30 PM
Thats what I'm afraid of. LEBEAU himself is afraid to quit. He doesn't want to be Bear Bryant or Joe Paterno.

This phony "#1 ranking" is what he can say to justify staying. Tomlin nor Rooney will fire him, that's bad PR.

LeBeau has them over a barrel.

NeilPatrickBanana
12-24-2012, 12:39 PM
it's time to retire...

teeceemadison
12-24-2012, 12:42 PM
i dont know, too many injuries on the defense really cost us....

cbrunn
12-24-2012, 12:44 PM
Yeah I'm going to agree time to retire ...

and I can actually see them moving to a 4-3 defense... and if he hired Raheem Morris I would be all for it

Worilds and Woodley used to be DEs in college ...

Spence is more of a 4-3 OLB ...

Hood is more of a 4-3 DT

the drafting since Tomlin has been more of a 4-3 Drafting

TarlsQtr
12-24-2012, 12:59 PM
Yeesh.

Harrison not himself for most of season because of injury.
Troy not himself (or completely absent) until yesterday because of injury.
Woodley out for hunk of season because of injury.

(The above three being our biggest playmakers.)

Ike misses last quarter of season due to injury.

Although I agree that we were not the best "D" as such a ranking would suggest, they were solid (top 10) especially after the first 5 games or so. When you play close games all year because of a sh!tty offense, you have many more opportunities to give up the lead. If our offense played as "sh!tty" as our D did this season, we would be at least 12-4 and fighting for a first round bye.

DL did everything he could with what he was given. I mean seriously? He should have used press coverage against the Cowboys with Josh Victorian and Robert Freakin' Golden? Romo would have put 60 up on us.

LatrobePA
12-24-2012, 12:59 PM
No, it's time for change. Rex Ryan would be awesome!

Real Deal Steel
12-24-2012, 01:46 PM
We need a new, young, stud Nose Tackle. That's a must for the coming season. Hampton is soooooooooo done.

jpele
12-24-2012, 01:54 PM
I don't believe there's any deception in our #1 ranking. The games the D let us down you have to look at the injuries we had. The coaches may not be able to use injury as an excuse but the reality is the Steelers were decimated this year on both sides of the ball.

To answer the question, yes I want DL to return.

SuperSteelers
12-24-2012, 01:56 PM
In my opinion I think the #1 overall ranking is very deceptive. The first half of the season the offense was top 1 or 2 in time of possession which kept the defense off the field and sprinkle in a couple of good games against bad teams the second half of the season may have inflated those numbers.

LatrobePA
12-24-2012, 01:58 PM
Cortez Allen played lights out, Keenan Lewis looks good. I think we're set at corner! We need a pass rush and a safety or two..

Crash
12-24-2012, 02:01 PM
Funny how the injuries always count for the defense.

But somehow every year the offense is a picture of health.

Amazing.

TarlsQtr
12-24-2012, 02:01 PM
Cortez Allen played lights out, Keenan Lewis looks good. I think we're set at corner! We need a pass rush and a safety or two..

Two good corners is not enough these days against the Saints, Patriots, etc.

LatrobePA
12-24-2012, 02:02 PM
Two good corners is not enough these days against the Saints, Patriots, etc.

Ike will be back next year. I do agree but a pass rush will help the secondary!

scudmissile29
12-24-2012, 02:26 PM
Dick LeBeau is a true legend of the game but nobody lasts forever.......I think its way past time for him to go......People will bring up the fact about the number 1 defense but I think we all know this is far from one of the best Steelers defenses.......Plus a fresh perspective could do some good.....BA was forced out so its time to force the old man out to.....

Hey Dick,


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QaG2Acg8n60

steelchamp204
12-24-2012, 03:06 PM
Yeesh.

Harrison not himself for most of season because of injury.
Troy not himself (or completely absent) until yesterday because of injury.
Woodley out for hunk of season because of injury.

(The above three being our biggest playmakers.)

Ike misses last quarter of season due to injury.

Although I agree that we were not the best "D" as such a ranking would suggest, they were solid (top 10) especially after the first 5 games or so. When you play close games all year because of a sh!tty offense, you have many more opportunities to give up the lead. If our offense played as "sh!tty" as our D did this season, we would be at least 12-4 and fighting for a first round bye.

DL did everything he could with what he was given. I mean seriously? He should have used press coverage against the Cowboys with Josh Victorian and Robert Freakin' Golden? Romo would have put 60 up on us.

Press coverage looked pretty damn good the last few minutes when the cowboys could have won the game then. Thats all Im going to say. He should have tried it earlier, what the difference if they give up a big play or they play a cushion to where it adds up in 3 passes to a big play? Nothing.

coldrolled
12-24-2012, 05:32 PM
We need to rotate out the injury prone before they get hurt or replace them with more durable players, good or bad... missing more than 3 games a year isnt helping anyone.. this team never got into sync... OFF or DEF

jdehoff83
12-24-2012, 05:56 PM
Id like to see them dump everybody just hand out pink slips with their candy canes. Haley first

steelers75
12-24-2012, 05:59 PM
No, go away.

Don't want Butler either. The defense needs a new voice.

If Tomlin is allowed to make this hire? IMO it will be Raheem Morris.

He won't. Butler will get the job. It's the ONLY reason he has stuck around the last several years when Whisenhunt was trying to poach him to be the Cardinals' DC.

TarlsQtr
12-24-2012, 06:15 PM
Press coverage looked pretty damn good the last few minutes when the cowboys could have won the game then. Thats all Im going to say. He should have tried it earlier, what the difference if they give up a big play or they play a cushion to where it adds up in 3 passes to a big play? Nothing.

You can get away with it for a drive or two but once the OC makes the adjustment to the Steelers doing press coverage, they would have been toast. I believe any DC in the league would have played it the same way (obviously no way to prove this).

Stone
12-24-2012, 07:28 PM
I often question the elder statesman but let's be honest.......We had the number one defense in the league. Granted, stats are like sex with a fat woman but the number 1 defense doesn't lie. It's a damn good defense! I think it needs tweaked, but DL is the God of defense and while he continues to generate the best D in the league, I don't want someone who gives us a middle of the pack D!

Get a new OC or have this OC generate some creativity and the D is fine!

coldrolled
12-24-2012, 07:32 PM
i think the first half the Def was crap, the second half the offense went into the toilet...

The swing was a bit of the Troy swing and then the injured Ben swing.. He still cant throw real well. hes acting like hes 100% he looks like 70%

Crash
12-25-2012, 01:35 AM
#1 defense my ***. They spent the least amount of time on the field and they are #8 in points against.

Imagine where they'd be if the offense didn't hold the ball so much prior to Ben getting hurt.

Rhyno
12-25-2012, 01:46 AM
Yeesh.

Harrison not himself for most of season because of injury.
Troy not himself (or completely absent) until yesterday because of injury.
Woodley out for hunk of season because of injury.

(The above three being our biggest playmakers.)

Ike misses last quarter of season due to injury.

Although I agree that we were not the best "D" as such a ranking would suggest, they were solid (top 10) especially after the first 5 games or so. When you play close games all year because of a sh!tty offense, you have many more opportunities to give up the lead. If our offense played as "sh!tty" as our D did this season, we would be at least 12-4 and fighting for a first round bye.

DL did everything he could with what he was given. I mean seriously? He should have used press coverage against the Cowboys with Josh Victorian and Robert Freakin' Golden? Romo would have put 60 up on us.

This.

Who the hell could have done any better, given the players that were in place and the injuries they sustained?

Crash
12-25-2012, 02:11 AM
This.

Who the hell could have done any better, given the players that were in place and the injuries they sustained?

Didn't Dom Capers have rookies and guys off the street making plays for his defense the year they beat us?

steelchamp204
12-25-2012, 03:06 AM
This.

Who the hell could have done any better, given the players that were in place and the injuries they sustained?

This thread is just a question. I didnt say DL sucked ****ing balls this season. I think he should have retired a few years ago after the Packers sb. That is just me.

Crash
12-25-2012, 03:21 AM
His 4th quarter scheme sucks.

You KNEW, that after Ben's 2nd pick that he would go zone and not bring pressure. He does it all the time. And they get burned on that constantly.

Compare that to Rob Ryan at the end of our Dallas game in regulation. We had a make shift OL and two rookies, and with the game on the line he brought the heat.

Töm87
12-25-2012, 05:50 AM
Seriously how can you not want him back?
What more do you excpect from the defense?
If most key players are healthy, our D still is the best in the NFL.
I pray he comes back!

TarlsQtr
12-25-2012, 10:37 AM
His 4th quarter scheme sucks.

You KNEW, that after Ben's 2nd pick that he would go zone and not bring pressure. He does it all the time. And they get burned on that constantly.

Compare that to Rob Ryan at the end of our Dallas game in regulation. We had a make shift OL and two rookies, and with the game on the line he brought the heat.

You mean the same Rob Ryan with the 19th ranked D that is giving up 4 more points a game than us?

SnakeEyes43
12-25-2012, 11:23 AM
Butler is def gonna get it. Why do you think he stayed?

Crash
12-25-2012, 11:38 AM
You mean the same Rob Ryan with the 19th ranked D that is giving up 4 more points a game than us?

And how many drives has their defense had to start on their side of the field all year because of Romo's turnovers?

Our defense the last two years doesn't make enough plays. One game shouldn't cloud the judgement.

Aren't you sick of watching high draft picks sit for three years because the scheme is allegedly too hard?

It wasn't too hard for Deion Figures in 1993, or Chad Brown. Or Brentson Buckner in 1994, or Jason Gildon when CAPERS (see the pattern) was our DC.

It's not the scheme, it's the mindset of LeBeau that holds these players back.

Get7With7
12-25-2012, 11:49 AM
Butler is def gonna get it. Why do you think he stayed?

But one must wonder if that's what Tomlin wants or is it what Artie wants?

Crash
12-25-2012, 12:14 PM
Tomlin and Butler DO have a prior working relationship before Tomlin came here.

But IMO if TOMLIN has final say? It would be Raheem Morris.

Goodfrom55
12-25-2012, 12:44 PM
I say yes because if he has 3 solid corners, it will allow him to do some other things with Troy and also take more chances with blitzes. If anyone should not be back, it is DL coach Mitchell. His next job should be as a Waltz instructor because the front 3 did a hell of a job doing the waltz this season.

City of Champyinz
12-25-2012, 02:05 PM
Def bring DL back. Db play has been commendable given the injuries. It would be nice if the guys up front played better. I think DL does a great job with scheming but players still have to execute.

Sent from my SGH-T889 using Tapatalk 2

Danger DANJ
12-25-2012, 02:29 PM
Although the Steelers D being ranked #1 seems a little skewed, they were still a great D this year...and that's without creating a lot of turnovers. It's not Coach Dad's fault if the players can't cause turnovers. As much as I feel he should retire, I'm not ready to throw him out like trash.

If the offense didn't have one of the worst lines in the NFL again this year, the Steelers would be winning the division and playing for the #1 seed. If we can avoid injuries and get the young linemen playing better, the offense would be able to put up 30+ points a game. We would be able to pass and RUN. If the offense played this year the way they can we would be like 13-3.

If Dick decides to retire, I want to see a 4-3 put in place. I'm just afraid any changes that come from Dick retiring will put the team in rebuilding mode for a couple of seasons and pretty much waste the talents we have on offense, especially Ben.

TarlsQtr
12-25-2012, 02:42 PM
And how many drives has their defense had to start on their side of the field all year because of Romo's turnovers?

Our defense the last two years doesn't make enough plays. One game shouldn't cloud the judgement.

Aren't you sick of watching high draft picks sit for three years because the scheme is allegedly too hard?

It wasn't too hard for Deion Figures in 1993, or Chad Brown. Or Brentson Buckner in 1994, or Jason Gildon when CAPERS (see the pattern) was our DC.

It's not the scheme, it's the mindset of LeBeau that holds these players back.

If it is because of Romo, then they should be giving up fewer yards than us. A 20 yard drive is still less than an 80, correct? And did you watch any of our games? Eight freakin' fumbles in one game?

TarlsQtr
12-25-2012, 03:32 PM
And how many drives has their defense had to start on their side of the field all year because of Romo's turnovers?

2012 Steeler Turnovers: INT-14, Fumbles Lost-16, Total-30
2012 Cowboy Turnovers: INT-16, Fumbles Lost-10, Total 26

The truth is that our offense put the D in a ton of bad situations this year. Our two top backs do not have 1000 yard combined. Last year, we had two WRs with more than 1100 yards each. This year, neither will reach 1000.

In a game that was supposed to be such a poor effort, we held a very good offense to 24 points in regulation with future Piggly Wiggly employees, Josh Victorian and Robert Freakin' Golden as DBs. That we even had a chance to win is a miracle.

TarlsQtr
12-25-2012, 03:38 PM
Although the Steelers D being ranked #1 seems a little skewed, they were still a great D this year...and that's without creating a lot of turnovers. It's not Coach Dad's fault if the players can't cause turnovers. As much as I feel he should retire, I'm not ready to throw him out like trash.

Exactly. Some seem to think that bringing a Ryan brother or someone else coaching a mediocre D will make Ike able to catch and Harrison, Troy, and Woodley stay healthy. It is no coincidence that the game where we had Troy, James, and Woodley all relatively healthy we were able to sack and create turnovers.

Crash
12-25-2012, 09:33 PM
The truth is that our offense put the D in a ton of bad situations this year.

That's laughable. We had 15 forced turnovers after 14 games.

HUNT4SEVEN
12-25-2012, 10:01 PM
It's BEEN time for him to be LONG GONE,hell NO i don't want him back, and i don't want Keith Butler either if he's not gonna simplify this defense and disguise the coverage's...

TarlsQtr
12-26-2012, 02:36 AM
That's laughable. We had 15 forced turnovers after 14 games.

Again, our top three playmakers were either out or ineffective for most of the year because of injury. What' s "laughable" is you submitting Dallas as the model D and when it is pointed out that they gave up a ton more yards and points, you blame Romo and his turnovers for giving their D poor field position. Then, when it is pointed out that the Steelers turned it over more than the Dallas offense, it does not matter anymore. At least make an attempt at a consistent and coherent argument.

TarlsQtr
12-26-2012, 02:52 AM
For all of those ready to show DL the door, one question. Who should replace him? Keep in mind that the proven DCs coaching the best defenses will almost definitely not A) make a lateral move as they are HC candidates and B) leave their lower ranked but supposedly better Ds for a supposedly old and crappy D. In other words, we would be stuck with an unproven commodity instead of someone considered by most front office types as one of the best around. I am thankful the Rooneys are smarter than that.

BlitzburghRockCity
12-26-2012, 03:01 AM
I don't believe there's any deception in our #1 ranking. The games the D let us down you have to look at the injuries we had. The coaches may not be able to use injury as an excuse but the reality is the Steelers were decimated this year on both sides of the ball.

To answer the question, yes I want DL to return.

I've been on the fence post all year long about Lebeau, but when it comes down it the defense this year was more worthy of their number 1 ranking than last year that is for sure.

The secondary was much better all year long, which was huge for us considering the pass rush was non existent all too often. I credit Carnell Lake for that but also Lebeau for figuring out ways to keep the front 7 at least able to do something.

I like the middle linebacking play this season overall but the pass rush was just terrible. I mean seriously when you rely on the OLB's for your sacks and neither one could break double digits, that's just pathetic.

We can dive into all that more in the offseason now but as for Lebeau, if he does not return it will be Keith Butler. They've been keeping him around for a reason and I'd be shocked if he isn't the successor. I've heard people talk that Butler is more aggressive than Lebeau is, so even if he was trained by DL he's got a young fresh mind with new ideas which could be real good.

Crash
12-26-2012, 03:46 AM
What' s "laughable" is you submitting Dallas as the model D and when it is pointed out that they gave up a ton more yards and points,

I didn't say Dallas was the model D. All I said when their season was on the line they blitzed.

Our season was on the line and we had James Harrison AND Lawrence Timmons in coverage.

Just like 4th and 15 against the Chiefs. Zone. No blitz, complete.

Just like 3rd and and I believe 10 from the Bengals 10 in the 3rd. No blitz, complete.

3rd and 10 after the Wallace TD against the Packers in the Super Bowl, rush 4 drop 7, no blitz, complete.

It happens too much. I wouldn't mind losing if we just played our alleged "Blitzburgh" style in key moments.

Crash
12-26-2012, 03:59 AM
For all of those ready to show DL the door, one question. Who should replace him? Keep in mind that the proven DCs coaching the best defenses will almost definitely not A) make a lateral move as they are HC candidates and B) leave their lower ranked but supposedly better Ds for a supposedly old and crappy D. In other words, we would be stuck with an unproven commodity instead of someone considered by most front office types as one of the best around. I am thankful the Rooneys are smarter than that.

Would these be the same Rooney's who told a HOF QB who went to 3 SBs in 8 years that he had to change the way he played?

I'll give you one name right now: Raheem Morris.

37 years old, young former head coach, and has ties to Mike Tomlin. Likes to blitz and play press coverage.

Redskins had 10 picks as a defense in 2011, 1st year with Morris on staff they have 18 in 15 games.

The 2012 Steelers have 9. 2011 we had 11. 2010 we had 21, 2009 we had 12.

Three of the last 4 years it's been a problem.

Butler is 56, he's not a young guy. All he would be is LeBeau Lite.

TarlsQtr
12-26-2012, 07:39 PM
I didn't say Dallas was the model D. All I said when their season was on the line they blitzed.

Our season was on the line and we had James Harrison AND Lawrence Timmons in coverage.

Just like 4th and 15 against the Chiefs. Zone. No blitz, complete.

Just like 3rd and and I believe 10 from the Bengals 10 in the 3rd. No blitz, complete.

3rd and 10 after the Wallace TD against the Packers in the Super Bowl, rush 4 drop 7, no blitz, complete.

It happens too much. I wouldn't mind losing if we just played our alleged "Blitzburgh" style in key moments.

This is the problem with fans. They are so enamored with the blitz because they want splash plays. However, when your pass rushers are not getting to the QB, it often ends up with a splash play for the offense. With a little research, we can come up with as many plays (or more) where we blitzed/played press coverage and it killed us. (Example number one, the first play of overtime against the Donkeys in the playoffs last year.) The blitz is as much about surprise as anything else and if you come on every 3rd and long there is no more surprise.

TarlsQtr
12-26-2012, 07:59 PM
Would these be the same Rooney's who told a that he had to change the way he played?

And they were correct. Listen, they were not asking for a huge rebuild of Ben's game. Asking him to get the ball out a little quicker and to stop taking unnecessary hits is reasonable.


I'll give you one name right now: Raheem Morris.

Interesting, you use the "HOF QB who went to 3 SBs in 8 years" line to discredit the Rooney's asking Ben to change his game, yet the D went to the same 3 Super Bowls (and played much better than Ben) and it is NOT a reason to keep DL. That is completely inconsistent.

Not only that, you would replace DL with a defensive coord....oh, wait, Raheem Morris has never been a defensive coordinator in this league and only has one year experience as a DC ANYWHERE (K-State). His most recent experience is as a DB coach with one of the worst secondaries in the league at Washington (ranked 30th).

And this is the problem. You and roughly half of Steeler nation want change for the sake of change, without any consideration that the replacement would probably be MUCH WORSE than what we currently have.


37 years old, young former head coach, and has ties to Mike Tomlin. Likes to blitz and play press coverage.

Yeah, he did that so much as a defensive coordi..., oh wait.


Redskins had 10 picks as a defense in 2011, 1st year with Morris on staff they have 18 in 15 games.

And they gave up 100 more passing yards per game than the Steelers (ranked 30th, Steelers 1).


The 2012 Steelers have 9. 2011 we had 11. 2010 we had 21, 2009 we had 12.

Three of the last 4 years it's been a problem.

Not DL's fault the Steelers DBs cannot catch. I would also note that the one good year with INTs was Troy's last healthy year.

Crash
12-26-2012, 08:08 PM
And they were correct. Listen, they were not asking for a huge rebuild of Ben's game. Asking him to get the ball out a little quicker and to stop taking unnecessary hits is reasonable

No, they weren't correct. They changed Ben, focused on the run, and he got hurt anyway.


Interesting, you use the "HOF QB who went to 3 SBs in 8 years" line to discredit the Rooney's asking Ben to change his game, yet the D went to the same 3 Super Bowls (and played much better than Ben) and it is NOT a reason to keep DL. That is completely inconsistent.

LeBeau is 75 years old. When is enough enough? His 4th quarter prevent defense almost lost them XLIII and Aaron Rodgers shredded him two years ago.

I don't want or really need splash plays, but when your season is on the line? I don't want James Harrison not rushing the passer.

You watch, meaningless game Sunday, we'll blitz all damn day.


And this is the problem. You and roughly half of Steeler nation want change for the sake of change, without any consideration that the replacement would probably be MUCH WORSE than what we currently have.

That's what happened to the offense: 7-8.


Not DL's fault the Steelers DBs cannot catch.

It IS his fault when they are playing 8 yards off the ball on 3rd and 3. That's the biggest reason we don't get picks, they are told, taught, and coached, to "Tackle the Catch".

Me? I'd coach them to PREVENT the catch.

Crash
12-26-2012, 08:11 PM
This is the problem with fans. They are so enamored with the blitz because they want splash plays. However, when your pass rushers are not getting to the QB, it often ends up with a splash play for the offense.

Our pass rushes and playmakers aren't rushing the passer, on key 3rd down plays, you can pretty much make book that two of these three: Timmons, Woodley, Harrison, are in coverage while Hood, Kiesel, and Hampton/McClendon are rushing.

TarlsQtr
12-26-2012, 08:42 PM
No, they weren't correct. They changed Ben, focused on the run, and he got hurt anyway.

Really? You are entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

2011: Pass-539 (55%), Run-434 (45%)
2012: Pass-551 (59%), Run-384 (41%)

In other words, the Steelers ran a higher percentage in 2011, the year before your claim that the Rooney's said to "focus on the run" more.


LeBeau is 75 years old. When is enough enough? His 4th quarter prevent defense almost lost them XLIII and Aaron Rodgers shredded him two years ago.

Hogwash. DL's age is irrelevant. "Enough is enough" when he or the Steelers feel he cannot do the job anymore. You can be a very good or very bad DC at his age. The number has nothing to do with it. His D was stellar against AZ for three quarters and "getting "shredded" by Rodgers is a myth. Giving up 338 TOTAL YARDS to the Rodgers juggernaut is a damn fine performance and we actually outgained them by 50 yards. The killers were two Ben INTs and a Mendy fumble.


I don't want or really need splash plays, but when your season is on the line? I don't want James Harrison not rushing the passer.

He rushed tons last Sunday and all season. The problem was his knee would not get him there for most of the season.


You watch, meaningless game Sunday, we'll blitz all damn day.

Perhaps, not a bad move against a rookie QB.


It IS his fault when they are playing 8 yards off the ball on 3rd and 3. That's the biggest reason we don't get picks, they are told, taught, and coached, to "Tackle the Catch".

Me? I'd coach them to PREVENT the catch.

It all depends on situation, down, distance, and personnel. The Steelers were not getting to the QB all season long, blitz or no blitz because of injuries to Troy, Harrison, and Woodley. When you blitz, do not get there, and your young DBs are in press coverage (especially in Dallas with Victorian and Golden), you are looking to get burned big time.

I noticed you did not address the fact that your chosen replacement, Raheem Morris, has shown zero evidence that he would better than DL.

TarlsQtr
12-26-2012, 08:49 PM
Our pass rushes and playmakers aren't rushing the passer, on key 3rd down plays, you can pretty much make book that two of these three: Timmons, Woodley, Harrison, are in coverage while Hood, Kiesel, and Hampton/McClendon are rushing.

I'd like to see some stats that back your theory.

Crash
12-26-2012, 09:00 PM
His D was stellar against AZ for three quarters


And what happened in the 4th? PREVENT.

This happens all the time, don't believe me? Read this (ignore the headline, READ the article):

http://m.nbcsports.com/content/kacsmar-dont-believe-hype-steelers-d


and "getting "shredded" by Rodgers is a myth. Giving up 338 TOTAL YARDS to the Rodgers juggernaut is a damn fine performance

If the Packers could catch the ball in the second half they would have hung 45 on us. Rodgers threw for 3, if his WRs could catch he would have had at least 5 TD passes in that game.

Crash
12-26-2012, 09:02 PM
I'd like to see some stats that back your theory.

Watch the games. Watch who's rushing, better yet, watch who ISN'T.

Timmons spends so much time on 3rd down in deep middle zone covering no one it's sad. He's being wasted back there. He needs to be 10 yards and IN from the LOS. Having him back pedaling to almost an extra safety position is useless.

TarlsQtr
12-26-2012, 09:21 PM
And what happened in the 4th? PREVENT.

This happens all the time, don't believe me? Read this (ignore the headline, READ the article):

http://m.nbcsports.com/content/kacsmar-dont-believe-hype-steelers-d



If the Packers could catch the ball in the second half they would have hung 45 on us. Rodgers threw for 3, if his WRs could catch he would have had at least 5 TD passes in that game.

I mean, really? The entire narrative of the Steelers forever has been a so-so offense and a stellar D. The Ravens even copied our "formula" for success, yet now, suddenly, it has been the offense that has carried us the last decade? Too funny. Ben had 3 subpar SB performances and we won 2 of 3 because of defense. Yep, we were toasted in the 4th by AZ but you (and this writer) act as if this was something new for Kurt Warner. The guy has done that to more than Lebeau's D over his career. And it is funny how Ben saved us while ignoring a defensive touchdown that was huge in giving us that lead in the first place. You and this blogger went in with a premise and then went looking for any evidence that supported you instead of looking at it without preconceived ideas.

Same with GB. You are so attached to your premise that you ignore three costly turnovers for a couple of dropped passes (just as the writer places "credit for winning the Seattle SB with the 'refs.') Whatever, QUANTITATIVE measures such as being consistently a top 5 defense are overrated anyway. (Sarcasm)

A comment about your article that says it all. The guy actually makes the claim that the Steelers D has only been good (to the degree he thinks it is good) because it drafted Troy. What a genius! Good players make good teams? Who wudda thunk it???

Finally, what evidence that your choice (Raheem Morris who has never been a DC in this league) would have done better in any of those games?

TarlsQtr
12-26-2012, 09:31 PM
Watch the games. Watch who's rushing, better yet, watch who ISN'T.

Timmons spends so much time on 3rd down in deep middle zone covering no one it's sad. He's being wasted back there. He needs to be 10 yards and IN from the LOS. Having him back pedaling to almost an extra safety position is useless.

I have but it is obvious that you do not. Your "perceptions" have been wildly off.

You claimed the Steelers tried to the run more this year and I proved statistically that you were wrong.

You claimed that Raheem Morris was doing such a bang up job in Washington, but I showed statistically where you were wrong.

You claimed that Raheem Morris was such a blitz/press coverage guy, yet I showed where he has never been a DC in this league to be anything.

You claimed that the Dallas D had worse stats than the Steelers only because of Romo's interceptions, but I showed statistically that the Steelers have turned the ball over more often.

Excuse me for not trusting your perceptions and being tired of doing your research for you.

polamalu43
12-26-2012, 10:55 PM
I would welcome him back but if HE choses to retire I know Butler is waiting and will be hungry to put a stamp on the defence.

Crash
12-27-2012, 12:31 AM
I mean, really? The entire narrative of the Steelers forever has been a so-so offense and a stellar D.

That's what people THINK, but it's not true.

The Steelers have ONLY won Titles/Super Bowls when they took the QB position seriously.

80 years of Steelers seasons:

They won NOTHING for 40 years.

They won 4 Super Bowls when Bradshaw was drafted #1 overall (Bradshaw and four of his offensive players are in Canton btw, so much for "so-so offense").

They won ONE AFC title in 20 years after Bradshaw left despite all that defense and all that running. In fact, the ONLY AFC title they won in that span? Was the ONLY year in TEN YEARS of Bill Cowher football where they had a top 10 passing attack led by team MVP, QUARTERBACK Neil O'Donnell.

They won three AFC titles and 2 rings in 9 years when they got Ben.

This teams success is defined by franchise QBs behind center. Period.

You can have the perception.

I'll take reality for $500 Alex.


You claimed that Raheem Morris was such a blitz/press coverage guy, yet I showed where he has never been a DC in this league to be anything.

So a head coach can't implement his system?


Yep, we were toasted in the 4th by AZ but you (and this writer) act as if this was something new for Kurt Warner. The guy has done that to more than Lebeau's D over his career.

You are ignoring the point though: EVERYONE has done it to LeBeau in the 4th quarter in crunch time.

Carson Palmer has sucked since he came back in 2009. Not against LeBeau in the 4th quarter.

Matt Hasselbeck was a BACKUP QB this season. But he kicked LeBeau's defense's *** in the 4th quarter.

Joe Flacco is one of the WORST ROAD QBs in the NFL the last two seasons. He went 90 yards in the 4th quarter.

The 2009 Raiders were one of the worst offenses in NFL HISTORY, but scored 21 4th quarter points with their BACKUP QB.

Tim Tebow throwing for 316 yards? He hasn't thrown for 316 yards TOTAL since.


You claimed that the Dallas D had worse stats than the Steelers only because of Romo's interceptions, but I showed statistically that the Steelers have turned the ball over more often.

How many drives did Dallas' defense start in their own territory because of Romo? You never did show me that one, did you? You are aware that Charlie Batch throwing a pick in the Ravens end zone is not the same as Romo throwing a pick on his side of the 50, correct?


Ben had 3 subpar SB performances and we won 2 of 3 because of defense

If you think Ben was "subpar" in XLIII you didn't watch that game.

LatrobePA
12-27-2012, 10:10 AM
Time for him to go!

NeilPatrickBanana
12-27-2012, 10:40 AM
Excuse me for not trusting your perceptions and being tired of doing your research for you.

well done

Crash
12-27-2012, 11:59 AM
You claimed that Raheem Morris was such a blitz/press coverage guy, yet I showed where he has never been a DC in this league to be anything

In Washington this season....

http://www.hogshaven.com/2012/9/19/3356874/source-raheem-morris-called-the-defensive-plays-in-the-fourth-quarter

Research this....

TarlsQtr
12-28-2012, 03:00 PM
That's what people THINK, but it's not true.

The Steelers have ONLY won Titles/Super Bowls when they took the QB position seriously.

Taking the QB position seriously is far different than not being a defense/run first team.

Since Ben joined us (Super Bowl years in bold):

2004(NFL Rank): Rush-4, Pass-28
2005-Rush-5, Pass-24 (Defense 3 in points)
2006-Rush-10, Pass-9
2007-Rush-3, Pass-22
2008-Rush-23, Pass-19 (Defense 1)
2009-Rushing-19, Pass-9
2010-Rush-11, Pass-14 (Defense 1)
2011-Rush-14, Pass-11

As you can see, in no year have we had an "elite" passing game, which I would define as top 5. Even back with Bradshaw, it was run first and count on your D to win.


They won 4 Super Bowls when Bradshaw was drafted #1 overall (Bradshaw and four of his offensive players are in Canton btw, so much for "so-so offense").

Yep, Bradshaw was a big part of it but they were not a pass happy team. It was mainly Franco, Rocky, and a great D.


They won three AFC titles and 2 rings in 9 years when they got Ben.

In years where they were ranked 24th, 19th, and 14th in passing. Only one of those years is even in the top 50% (2010 barely) in passing.


This teams success is defined by franchise QBs behind center. Period.

LOL And it had nothing to do with Mean Joe, Lambert, Shell, Blount, Porter, Greene, Harrison, Troy, etc.


You can have the perception.

I'll take reality for $500 Alex.

Reality is we have had an average passing game AT BEST in the three years we have been to the Super Bowl with Ben. Our defense was ranked first twice and third once in the same years. Sure, it has been ALL about Ben. LOL


So a head coach can't implement his system?

Sure he can. The funny part is that you want to give Morris credit for making defensive decisions in TB but have not even contemplated that perhaps Tomlin has a say in whether the Steelers go safe in the fourth quarter with small leads. In fact, I would AGREE that we do it too much, but we play just as conservatively with the offense (run, run, screen, punt) in that situation (and gives the D more opportunities to lose the lead) which makes me believe this how the head coach wants us to play.


You are ignoring the point though: EVERYONE has done it to LeBeau in the 4th quarter in crunch time.

Yeah, "everyone" is doing it yet we win 10-12 games most years and have made three recent Super Bowls. "Everyone" is not doing it enough then...


Tim Tebow throwing for 316 yards? He hasn't thrown for 316 yards TOTAL since.

Funny you would throw this in there since this is a game where Lebeau did exactly what you wanted. On the game-winning play, we blitzed and played press man to man, so now you are going to use it as evidence DL sucks? As I said, your arguments are not even coherent.


How many drives did Dallas' defense start in their own territory because of Romo? You never did show me that one, did you? You are aware that Charlie Batch throwing a pick in the Ravens end zone is not the same as Romo throwing a pick on his side of the 50, correct?

You just make stuff up. The average starting position for Dallas opponents has been the 26 yard line this season (10th in league). The average field position for Steeler opponents has been the 30 (30th in league). So, the Steeler D has gone on the field in the worst field position of any team in the league except Philly and Oakland. To quote you, "'ll take (STATISTICALLY PROVEN) reality for $500, Alex."


If you think Ben was "subpar" in XLIII you didn't watch that game.

AT BEST, he was "par." 256 yards with one TD and one INT does not make a Super Bowl legend. Steeler fans are blinded by the one great drive at the end, just as you are blinded by a couple of TDs given up by the D and completely ignoring that Lebeau's D created a pick six (which was needed to even make Ben's drive relevant) and recovered a fumble.

Big T
12-28-2012, 03:11 PM
completely ignoring that Lebeau's D created a pick six

Im not going to get into the whole arguement about LeBeau here, but this statement is completely inaccurate. If that play was run the way LeBeau intended, it would've been an Arizona touchdown. James Harrison created that pick six. He was supposed to blitz on that play, he didn't and dropped back because he was smart.

TarlsQtr
12-28-2012, 03:11 PM
In Washington this season....

http://www.hogshaven.com/2012/9/19/3356874/source-raheem-morris-called-the-defensive-plays-in-the-fourth-quarter

Research this....

I love it. In order to counter my fact-based analysis, you provide an article that states Morris called the defensive plays in the fourth quarter of one game!

Two points.

1) That does not make him a defensive coordinator, just as Batch going in the game during the 4th quarter does not make him a starter. The game plan was created and put in place by Haslett.

2) And this is funny. The entire premise of your diatribe against Dick Lebeau has been that his D gives up fourth quarter leads. But how did Raheem Morris do? They went into the fourth quarter with a 28-23 lead and lost 31-28 because they gave up a TD and two point conversion. Too freakin' funny!

TarlsQtr
12-28-2012, 03:15 PM
Im not going to get into the whole arguement about LeBeau here, but this statement is completely inaccurate. If that play was run the way LeBeau intended, it would've been an Arizona touchdown. James Harrison created that pick six. He was supposed to blitz on that play, he didn't and dropped back because he was smart.

I know that. I was hoping that Crush would bring that up because his big argument is that LeBeau does not BLITZ ENOUGH. On a play where Harrison was supposed to blitz, he did not, and a TD ensued. The point is that you cannot and should not be a blitz/press coverage team all the time. You have to mix it up. Blitzes work best when the offenses do not know when they are coming. Likewise, success occurs when they EXPECT you to blitz and you do not. This is what happened on Harrison's play.

Crash
12-28-2012, 03:58 PM
But the thing is we don't mix it up. We basically have one blitz that doesn't involve Troy calling his own shots.

The ILB cross middle stunt. And that's it.

You watch games of the 1994 Steelers when Dom Capers ran it, and compare it to Dick LeBeau since he returned in 2004?

It's not even close.

LatrobePA
12-28-2012, 04:13 PM
Dick tells players he'll be back...

Crash
12-28-2012, 04:27 PM
Oh goodie.

TarlsQtr
12-28-2012, 04:37 PM
But the thing is we don't mix it up. We basically have one blitz that doesn't involve Troy calling his own shots.

The ILB cross middle stunt. And that's it.

You watch games of the 1994 Steelers when Dom Capers ran it, and compare it to Dick LeBeau since he returned in 2004?

It's not even close.

An interesting statement since Harrison and Woodley have historically gotten most of our sacks. Neither are ILBs.

JollyRob68
12-28-2012, 06:03 PM
Time for Keith Butler to show us his vision.

Crash
12-28-2012, 06:09 PM
An interesting statement since Harrison and Woodley have historically gotten most of our sacks. Neither are ILBs.

And they aren't blitzers. They are pass rushing OLBs.

TarlsQtr
12-28-2012, 07:10 PM
And they aren't blitzers. They are pass rushing OLBs.

Wrong. Whenever two or more linebackers/DBs (along with the three linemen) rush the QB in a 3-4 alignment it is a "blitz." And we both know that not all of their sacks come when they are the only rushing LB. In fact, it is usually the opposite.

Crash
12-28-2012, 07:56 PM
The majority of their sacks by Woodley or Harrison is when they rush one of them, and 3 linemen.

Very rarely do Harrison and Woodley rush together.

The defense is figured out. Palmer said it, Rivers said it.

They both sucked all season, and LeBeau's "scheme" made them look like Hall of Famers.

TarlsQtr
12-28-2012, 08:39 PM
The majority of their sacks by Woodley or Harrison is when they rush one of them, and 3 linemen.

Very rarely do Harrison and Woodley rush together.

The defense is figured out. Palmer said it, Rivers said it.

They both sucked all season, and LeBeau's "scheme" made them look like Hall of Famers.

Sigh. But how often do Harrison and Foote or Harrison and Timmons rush together? How often do Woodley and Foote or Woodley and Timmons rush together? Just like the countless other perceptions you have put forth that have been completely wrong, this is another in a long line.

Do you have quotes from Rivers or Palmer that Lebeau's D was "figured out?' Why didn't Eli, Flacco (twice), Andy Dalton (twice), RGII, and a bunch of other QBs ever figure it out this year? These teams should be consistently putting 30 up on us. You are completely removed from reality. For Pete's sake, in another thread you complained about the Steelers D against the Bengals when it gave up 6 points.

Zachintosh66
12-28-2012, 10:02 PM
Sigh. But how often do Harrison and Foote or Harrison and Timmons rush together? How often do Woodley and Foote or Woodley and Timmons rush together? Just like the countless other perceptions you have put forth that have been completely wrong, this is another in a long line.

Do you have quotes from Rivers or Palmer that Lebeau's D was "figured out?' Why didn't Eli, Flacco (twice), Andy Dalton (twice), RGII, and a bunch of other QBs ever figure it out this year? These teams should be consistently putting 30 up on us. You are completely removed from reality. For Pete's sake, in another thread you complained about the Steelers D against the Bengals when it gave up 6 points.


This... +1

Crash
12-28-2012, 10:10 PM
For Pete's sake, in another thread you complained about the Steelers D against the Bengals when it gave up 6 points.

Wrong, I complained about the play before the FG when we rushed 3 men, dropped 8 in zone, and gave up the completion anyway.

Defense played their balls off all day. But on the biggest play of the game LeBeau coached scared and didn't allow them to pressure Dalton.

Didn't work.

LevonKirkland99
12-29-2012, 02:19 AM
Who are we to make a decision whether LeBeau should stay or go?

Do you think the defense was really was our problem this year?

Crash
12-29-2012, 03:02 AM
The defense isn't as good as their "rank". Early in the year they gave up too many scores following our own.

That's why we lost to the Broncos, that's why we lost to the Raiders, it's why we lost to the Titans.

They don't force enough turnovers, that also affects the offense's scoring.

People talk about where New England and Baltimore "rank".

But how many turnovers have the Pats forced?

TarlsQtr
12-29-2012, 03:38 AM
Wrong, I complained about the play before the FG when we rushed 3 men, dropped 8 in zone, and gave up the completion anyway.

Defense played their balls off all day. But on the biggest play of the game LeBeau coached scared and didn't allow them to pressure Dalton.

Didn't work.

And in OT during the playoff game in Denver, Lebeau did exactly what you wanted and we lost. I suspect you were b!tching about that with the rest of Steeler nation. You cannot blitz every play and you just like to point out the ones where they did not and complain. They lost against Cindy because of Ben, not Lebeau. This season was lost because of the offense, not the defense.

TarlsQtr
12-29-2012, 03:54 AM
The defense isn't as good as their "rank". Early in the year they gave up too many scores following our own.

That's why we lost to the Broncos, that's why we lost to the Raiders, it's why we lost to the Titans.

They don't force enough turnovers, that also affects the offense's scoring.

People talk about where New England and Baltimore "rank".

But how many turnovers have the Pats forced?

And you would fix it with Raheem Morris who has never been a DC in this league? You are the typical spoiled fan who expects nothing less than perfection every year and when you do not get it go running for the flavor of the month. This season was lost because of the OFFENSE. We did not get turnovers because the three we rely in for them (Woodley, Harrison, Troy) were out or playing hurt. DL cannot help that.

TarlsQtr
12-29-2012, 04:01 AM
The defense isn't as good as their "rank". Early in the year they gave up too many scores following our own.

That's why we lost to the Broncos, that's why we lost to the Raiders, it's why we lost to the Titans.

They don't force enough turnovers, that also affects the offense's scoring.

People talk about where New England and Baltimore "rank".

But how many turnovers have the Pats forced?

And you would fix it with Raheem Morris who has never been a DC in this league? You are the typical spoiled fan who expects nothing less than perfection every year and when you do not get it go running for the flavor of the month. This season was lost because of the OFFENSE. We did not get turnovers because the three we rely in for them (Woodley, Harrison, Troy) were out or playing hurt. DL cannot help that.

Crash
12-29-2012, 12:27 PM
And you would fix it with Raheem Morris who has never been a DC in this league? You are the typical spoiled fan who expects nothing less than perfection every year and when you do not get it go running for the flavor of the month. This season was lost because of the OFFENSE. We did not get turnovers because the three we rely in for them (Woodley, Harrison, Troy) were out or playing hurt. DL cannot help that.

You are aware that Morris was the DC in Tampa while being their head coach also, correct?

The offense had injuries too, why don't they get the same leeway as the defense?

Because assclowns like you would rather protect their reputation instead of seeing things for what they are.

Goodfrom55
12-29-2012, 01:26 PM
When it comes to blitzes, a blitz might be called, but then based on what the offense does or lines up in (formation), it forces the defnese to audiuble out of a blitz and Harrison, Woody , Timmons, Etc. have to drop in coverage.

But yes, very whole heartedly disagree with the final call VS cincy. Everytime we went press coverage vs Cincy, they went nowhere.

Dropping to soft zone with a 3 man rush gave them the game.

Crash
12-29-2012, 01:40 PM
I mean Christ if anything tackle Green at the snap. If the pass is later incomplete Dalton has 7 seconds to run a play from our 41 yard line.

Not only did we not blitz, we gave Green a free release from the LOS.

Why? Only LeBeau knows.

TarlsQtr
12-29-2012, 04:06 PM
You are aware that Morris was the DC in Tampa while being their head coach also, correct?

Yeah, he took over the D during the second half of 2009 and ran it into the ground even farther than it already was.

2009: Overall Rank: 29, Run: 32, Pass:10
2010: Overall Rank: 16, Run:28, Pass: 8
2011: Overall Rank: 29, Run: 32, Pass: 21

I sure hope he can get those results for our D!!!!!

Oh, and turnovers? 2011, they were ranked 20th in INTs.


The offense had injuries too, why don't they get the same leeway as the defense?

They do get the same leeway as the D, BUT the D did not lose the season for us in spite of the injuries. The offense did. These seasons happen. Have you seen me call for Ben getting cut, Tomlin fired, or Haley fired? No, but a lot here have. I am reasonable and see that the offense would have had to overcome some significant injuries for us to win this season. Unfortunately, you are not reasonable enough to see the D did overcome significant injuries to play well enough to make the playoffs. They were a top 10 defense (I agree that being ranked number one is not accurate), a standard the offense did not even come close to achieving.


Because assclowns like you would rather protect their reputation instead of seeing things for what they are.

I could care less about their "reputation." In fact, I even said that I agree that the D goes too conservative near the end of games. I believe the offense does at well, which probably indicates the approach is that of the head coach rather than either coordinator.

Crash
12-29-2012, 04:15 PM
They do get the same leeway as the D, BUT the D did not lose the season for us in spite of the injuries. The offense did.

Actually they both did. If the defense takes care of business at Tennessee and Oakland we aren't having this discussion. The defense also got torched for 415 yards by Tony Romo's offense in a big game. Philip Rivers? C'mon, he's been **** for 3 years and he dominated them.

NYCsteelersfan
12-29-2012, 05:40 PM
Actually they both did. If the defense takes care of business at Tennessee and Oakland we aren't having this discussion. The defense also got torched for 415 yards by Tony Romo's offense in a big game. Philip Rivers? C'mon, he's been **** for 3 years and he dominated them.

This team scored 4 or more TDs only one time the entire season. Even miserable offensive teams without QBs like the Jets and Titans scored 4 or more TDs more times this season than the Steelers.

This Steelers offensive is pathetic. The team has an elite QB and yet the offense plays like a team in a transition period without a competent QB (sloppy, undisciplined, unorganized, slow, ultra conservative, etc. etc.).

Anyone who think that time and resources should be wasted on any aspect of this team other than the offense is simply not understanding what teams must do to be successful in the modern NFL.

Get7With7
12-29-2012, 05:58 PM
This team scored 4 or more TDs only one time the entire season. Even miserable offensive teams without QBs like the Jets and Titans scored 4 or more TDs more times this season than the Steelers.

This Steelers offensive is pathetic. The team has an elite QB and yet the offense plays like a team in a transition period without a competent QB (sloppy, undisciplined, unorganized, slow, ultra conservative, etc. etc.).

Anyone who think that time and resources should be wasted on any aspect of this team other than the offense is simply not understanding what teams must do to be successful in the modern NFL.

I don't think the problem with the offense is so much about personnel, it's about injuries and philosophies.

The injury situations with this team are well-known, so I won't go into it. Outdated philosophies on the other hand really harmed the Steelers. The offense went onto the field with the intention of possessing, not scoring. In their minds it doesn't matter because long drives keeps the defense rested and makes them better as a result. But as we've seen, the defense can blow a lead when they're out there less than 25 minutes.

The Steelers, starting with Art II, do not want to be an offensive team. They want to be a defensive team. They don't want the offense to score many point because they're afraid they might get into a shootout. So they play scared, close to the vest Marty ball for most of the game. Only when their down in the last 2 minutes do they unleash Ben - he's not always going to win it when you only give him one chance at the end.

Want more from the offense? Less emphasis on time of possession, more emphasis on scoring. But it doesn't look like the Steelers want to that...

Crash
12-29-2012, 06:02 PM
The injury situations with this team are well-known, so I won't go into it. Outdated philosophies on the other hand really harmed the Steelers. The offense went onto the field with the intention of possessing, not scoring. In their minds it doesn't matter because long drives keeps the defense rested and makes them better as a result. But as we've seen, the defense can blow a lead when they're out there less than 25 minutes.

The Steelers, starting with Art II, do not want to be an offensive team. They want to be a defensive team. They don't want the offense to score many point because they're afraid they might get into a shootout. So they play scared, close to the vest Marty ball for most of the game. Only when their down in the last 2 minutes do they unleash Ben - he's not always going to win it when you only give him one chance at the end.

Want more from the offense? Less emphasis on time of possession, more emphasis on scoring. But it doesn't look like the Steelers want to that...

And THIS, is why I think Ben is gone after 2012. Art wants the team to be about HIM.

At the expense of Ben getting the credit, and, at the expense of points and WINS.

Ben is not going to let Art waste the rest of his career.

Sorry, he's too competitive for that.

NYCsteelersfan
12-29-2012, 06:06 PM
I don't think the problem with the offense is so much about personnel, it's about injuries and philosophies.

The injury situations with this team are well-known, so I won't go into it. Outdated philosophies on the other hand really harmed the Steelers. The offense went onto the field with the intention of possessing, not scoring. In their minds it doesn't matter because long drives keeps the defense rested and makes them better as a result. But as we've seen, the defense can blow a lead when they're out there less than 25 minutes.

The Steelers, starting with Art II, do not want to be an offensive team. They want to be a defensive team. They don't want the offense to score many point because they're afraid they might get into a shootout. So they play scared, close to the vest Marty ball for most of the game. Only when their down in the last 2 minutes do they unleash Ben - he's not always going to win it when you only give him one chance at the end.

Want more from the offense? Less emphasis on time of possession, more emphasis on scoring. But it doesn't look like the Steelers want to that...

You're right on with your anslysis of the offensive philosophy, however, you're wrong regarding personnel. This team has had one one of the worst offensive lines in football for the last 4-5 years now. Others on this forum have verbalized the issue very well by stating how the offensive line doesn't even create a pocket for Roethlisberger. It's instant chaos the moment the ball is snapped. Other than Rodgers, no other top QB in the league would survive if they played behind this line. And a running game is not the only reason. The fact that teams blitz because they know the Steelers can't run the ball only exacerbates the problem. This team also doesn't have a real #1 receiver.

Get7With7
12-29-2012, 06:11 PM
You're right on with your anslysis of the offensive philosophy, however, you're wrong regarding personnel. This team has had one one of the worst offensive lines in football for the last 4-5 years now. Others on this forum have verbalized the issue very well by stating how the offensive line doesn't even create a pocket for Roethlisberger. It's instant chaos the moment the ball is snapped. Other than Rodgers, no other top QB in the league would survive if they played behind this line. And a running game is not the only reason. The fact that teams blitz because they know the Steelers can't run the ball only exacerbates the problem. This team also doesn't have a real #1 receiver.

I think much of the o-line issues are because of injury. The Steelers have spend high draft picks on o-linemen since 2010, but at some point they've all missed time because of injury. Pouncey, Gilbert, DeCastro, Adams, and even Colon have not been healthy.

The way I see it, once they figure out how to stop falling on each other, maybe things will get better.

Crash
12-29-2012, 06:15 PM
And how do most of our guys get hurt on the OL?

Rolled up, bodies falling on them, etc.

And that's because of too much congestion at the LOS.

Which is exactly how Heath got hurt also.

Get7With7
12-29-2012, 06:16 PM
And THIS, is why I think Ben is gone after 2012. Art wants the team to be about HIM.

At the expense of Ben getting the credit, and, at the expense of points and WINS.

Ben is not going to let Art waste the rest of his career.

Sorry, he's too competitive for that.

Ben won't be gone, but I'm starting to wonder if being right is more important to the Steelers than winning.

NYCsteelersfan
12-29-2012, 06:22 PM
I think much of the o-line issues are because of injury. The Steelers have spend high draft picks on o-linemen since 2010, but at some point they've all missed time because of injury. Pouncey, Gilbert, DeCastro, Adams, and even Colon have not been healthy.

The way I see it, once they figure out how to stop falling on each other, maybe things will get better.

I'll give DeCastro and Adams another season, but the rest of them get hurt because they suck. In sports, durability has to be includes when evaluating personnel. In my opinion, a player who is hurt all the time sucks. Unless the injury is a serious off the field injury. Then it's excusable. On field injuries or BS off field injuries (like the **** baseball players pull) shouldn't be used as an excuse for why they're not good. It's a reason why they are worthless.

And even serious off the field injuries aren't excusable sometimes, like idiot Roethlisberger riding around without a helmet.

NYCsteelersfan
12-29-2012, 06:23 PM
Ben won't be gone, but I'm starting to wonder if being right is more important to the Steelers than winning.

That has always been a serious issue with this team. That's why the team let Burress and Holmes go for a basket of $hit.

HUNT4SEVEN
12-29-2012, 08:59 PM
20 plus years of the same scheme :cursin: it's just time to move on, like we did with BA last year,DL WAS great but now it's time to turn the page and bring in some new fresh blood,we need simple schemes so we can get our young talent on the field sooner, it's not personal with DL it's business and it's time to move on

NeilPatrickBanana
12-29-2012, 09:27 PM
I'll give DeCastro and Adams another season, but the rest of them get hurt because they suck. In sports, durability has to be includes when evaluating personnel. In my opinion, a player who is hurt all the time sucks. Unless the injury is a serious off the field injury. Then it's excusable. On field injuries or BS off field injuries (like the **** baseball players pull) shouldn't be used as an excuse for why they're not good. It's a reason why they are worthless.

And even serious off the field injuries aren't excusable sometimes, like idiot Roethlisberger riding around without a helmet.

So... Troy sucks?

NYCsteelersfan
12-30-2012, 12:44 AM
So... Troy sucks?

There's no good backup on the team because the team counts on him, but he can't stay healthy. He hurts the team more than he helps at this point. So yes, in my opinion, he sucks.

TarlsQtr
12-30-2012, 03:09 AM
Actually they both did. If the defense takes care of business at Tennessee and Oakland we aren't having this discussion. The defense also got torched for 415 yards by Tony Romo's offense in a big game. Philip Rivers? C'mon, he's been **** for 3 years and he dominated them.

Unbelievable. Your credibility is at about zero. Although he has had a poor year this season behind a terrible OL, Rivers was the second rated passer in 2010 and 11(1 spot behind Ben) in 2011. Even this year he is 15th, in the middle of the pack. Saying that "he has been **** for three years" is beyond ridiculous. As is your comment about the Dallas game. The Dallas offense has been very good since midseason and our secondary was playing with guys off the street. If you cannot see that having Josh Victorian and Robert Golden at DB is a recipe for disaster, you are delusional. Just like the Cincy game, the offense lost it. AB fumble and Ben INT=ballgame.

JoeSteelerFan
12-30-2012, 10:38 AM
I have tremendous respect for Dick LeBeau, however in saying that I also agree that it's time to move forward. I only say this because a team has the tendency to play to the vibe that is set by the coach.

I think they look at Grandpa Dick as the old pipe smoking grandfather reading bed time stories by the fireplace. The veterans have grown accustom to a very comfortable surrounding with Grandpa Dick as they sit wide eyed at the base of his rocking chair in their pajamas with a nice hot cup of hot chocolate.

While I may be embellishing somewhat to establish a point, I don't think Dick relates to the young kids on the same level that he was able to with the Cowher era veterans.

A new vibe/work ethic of strength, speed, and sheer violence needs to be re-established with the new kids.

Zachintosh66
12-30-2012, 12:39 PM
20 plus years of the same scheme it's just time to move on

if it aint broke dont fix it... 5 games we lost by 3 pts, those all arent on the D

we are always relying on the D

at some point our O has to learn to develop a killer instinct...

TarlsQtr
12-30-2012, 12:49 PM
if it aint broke dont fix it... 5 games we lost by 3 pts, those all arent on the D

we are always relying on the D

at some point our O has to learn to develop a killer instinct...

^This^ :plus1: