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View Full Version : Apparently Andrew Luck is already better than Ben Roethlisberger



DBR96A
12-14-2012, 12:50 AM
At least idiot non-Steeler fans seem to think so despite his 18 TD passes and 18 INTs, considering he has 15,545 more votes for the Pro Bowl (http://triblive.com/sports/nfl/3126376-85/nfl-league-pro#axzz2F06E1Dtv) than Roethlisberger does.

Black@Gold Forever32
12-14-2012, 01:19 AM
At least idiot non-Steeler fans seem to think so despite his 18 TD passes and 18 INTs, considering he has 15,545 more votes for the Pro Bowl (http://triblive.com/sports/nfl/3126376-85/nfl-league-pro#axzz2F06E1Dtv) than Roethlisberger does.

Pro Bowl voting by the fans is always a popularity contest.....I guess my voting for Ben hasn't helped...lol

Real Deal Steel
12-14-2012, 08:54 AM
That's why I don't put too much value in pro-bowl voting. It is a popularity contest. I"m a USC fan and for Junior Seau to make the pro-bowl as much as he did was a joke. Seau was never really that good but because he posed well after the play, and the media played him up so much, he was in those probowls.

LatrobePA
12-14-2012, 08:58 AM
Pro bowl football shouldn't even be considered a sport. It's lame!!

Nolrog
12-14-2012, 09:01 AM
Why does anyone really care about this stuff?

DBR96A
12-14-2012, 09:37 AM
Why does anyone really care about this stuff?

Because it shows you how full of **** most NFL fans are. Very few have minds of their own.

NeilPatrickBanana
12-14-2012, 10:38 AM
Because it shows you how full of **** most NFL fans are. Very few have minds of their own.

I have a mind of my own.

I think Luck is significantly more TALENTED than Roethlisberger. Talent, as measured by QB needy attributes like :
Accuracy, pocket awareness, mobility, arm strength, football IQ, guts, leadership, etc...
(I don't care about pro bowl voting, it's meaningless)

Talent needs to be realized (winning, statistical performance) before Luck can be classified as BETTER than Roethlisberger.

Luck is the singular reason the Colts are headed to the playoffs. He's a rookie, and it should be expected that he makes a lot of mistakes (18 Ints).

But also recognize, that Luck is going to throw more passes in his rookie year, than Ben threw in his first TWO seasons COMBINED.

I rank Roethlisberger as one of the top 5 QBs in the game right now
I do NOT rank Luck as one of the top 5 QBs in the game RIGHT NOW

But i DO think Luck is a lot more talented, and will be a generational talent who will be in the conversation of BEST QB in the game shortly

The only fans that are full of ****, are those who have an opinion without information (information being actually watching the games)

NeilPatrickBanana
12-14-2012, 11:52 AM
QBR
Ben 69.3 (#7 NFL)
Luck 67.4 (#9 NFL)

Luck is doing it on a team that finished dead last in the NFL last year and basically only added draft pick players
Luck is doing it as a ROOKIE, with an offensive coordinator that most Steelers fans thought was horrible

Luck's QBR RIGHT NOW 67.4, is better than Roethlisberger's 08-11 (46.8, 67.3, 64.1, 63.6) in the SAME OFFENSE...

Luck is more talented. I don't think that's a crazy statement. I think any knowledgeable football fan who is WATCHING, would be able to recognize that.

NYC, you've admitted to not watching Luck this year... Maybe you should?

Black@Gold Forever32
12-14-2012, 01:18 PM
I agree with you about Luck being more talented.....Andrew Luck has everything you want in a QB prospect....I watched Luck play while he was at Stanford and I agree the sky is the limit for Luck.....But Luck's NFL career is still in the early stages that we all really don't know how good or great Luck will be......So I look at Luck at having the potential to be one of the best.....

But ESPN's QBR rating is as big of joke as the NFL QB rating........Luck has 18 INT's this year and Ben only has 5 so I have major problems with them being so close in QBR...I understand there is more than just INT's when factoring in QBR......But I think its a flaw stat as much as the NFL's QR rating......

Looking at their rookie years its hard to compare since you're right Luck is asked to thrown a lot more then Ben.........But that was Cowher ball....Build a lead and then just run the football to kill the clock......But you mentioned Luck taking over a team that just won 2 games the year before and you're right.....But Ben also came in the 2nd game of the 04 season to replace an injured Maddox and the Steelers only won 6 games in 2003.........Of course the 2004 Steelers were a much better team then 2012 Colts but I doubt the 2004 Steelers make the play-offs with Maddox.......So Ben was also a key player in that team reaching the AFC title game that season and only losing 1 game in the regular season......

But back to the stats......Ben still threw 17 TD's in just 295 pass attempts so his TD percentage was 5.8 his rookie year.....Luck has thrown 18 TD's while having 537 pass attempts so far...Luck's TD percentage; is 3.4..........So if Ben did throw the ball as much as Luck his rookie Ben might have thrown 30 TD's.......Ben and Luck's INT percentage; were close in their rookie years....Ben's was 3.7 and Luck's 3.4........Luck does also have 5 rushing TD's and Ben did only have 1 his rookie year.....

Sorry for the rambling but I do think people forget how good Ben was his rookie year and how much of a factor he was on the 2004 and 2005 Steelers.......They knock Ben for not having the pass attempts but I think that is stupid....It proved to be a winning formula those seasons but at the sametime if Ben had the chance to throw more he would have had the stats like most of these rookie QB's are putting up lately.......Ben also led a team to the Super Bowl and won his 2nd year......His play in three play-off games were huge in the Steelers reaching Super Bowl XL......Will be interesting to see if Luck can match that....He has the talent.....But will he?

Real Deal Steel
12-14-2012, 01:22 PM
Luck is a good QB.

But last I checked, He didn't make the most clutch pass and catch in Super Bowl history. ( Ben to Santonio Holmes)
And to be truthful, with all those picks he throws before he gets started, he never will be in a position to make a clutch championship pass & catch.

Luck is not equal to Ben. Atleast not yet. But he's a good, good talent and worthy of the number one selection overall.

Black@Gold Forever32
12-14-2012, 01:25 PM
Luck is a good QB.

But last I checked, He didn't make the most clutch pass and catch in Super Bowl history. ( Ben to Santonio Holmes)
And to be truthful, with all those picks he throws before he gets started, he never will be in a position to make a clutch championship pass & catch.

Luck is not equal to Ben. Atleast not yet. But he's a good, good talent and worthy of the number one selection overall.

I don't think anybody is saying Luck is better then Ben right now as an NFL QB....But looking at them as QB prospects coming out of college and yes I agree Luck was more talented as a QB prospect then Ben...But that doesn't mean Luck will end up being the better NFL QB......To early to tell on how good or great Andrew Luck will become....But the potential is there....

KemoTherapy
12-14-2012, 01:38 PM
Would I do a straight up one for one trade of Ben for Luck at this point in time?? Hell yeah, that's a no brainer.

NeilPatrickBanana
12-14-2012, 02:25 PM
I think QBR is a great statistic

QB Rating is the flawed stat that only takes total passing stats into account (yards, tds, int, comp %)

QBR takes situational football into account, mobility, rushing, 3rd downs, red zone, etc

Luck offsets his INT because he is the best scrambler in the NFL. He's like Aaron Rodgers in that regard.

Luck also has a much higher Total EPA (Clutch weighted points expected added). Luck is 5th in the league, behind Brady, Peyton, Rodgers, and Ryan... he's doing this as a rookie, and since he was pretty much the most highly regarded QB prospect ever... it's not like it's a fluke.

Luck is 5th in QB PAR (Points above replacement), Ben is 13th

Ben has the better Pass EPA, as you would expect from level of experience (Luck 18 INTs, lack of experience).... but when you look at the total package of Luck's skills... it's obvious that he is more talented then Ben... it's only a matter of time before the results show he's the better QB.

NeilPatrickBanana
12-14-2012, 02:28 PM
Luck is a good QB.

But last I checked, He didn't make the most clutch pass and catch in Super Bowl history. ( Ben to Santonio Holmes)
And to be truthful, with all those picks he throws before he gets started, he never will be in a position to make a clutch championship pass & catch.

Luck is not equal to Ben. Atleast not yet. But he's a good, good talent and worthy of the number one selection overall.

Peyton threw 23 picks as a rookie.

Luck has thrown twice as many passes this year (537 w/ 3 games left), than Ben threw in his first 2 seasons combined (563)

NeilPatrickBanana
12-14-2012, 02:31 PM
Ben rookie season
11 INTs in 295 Attempts
3.7 percent INT rate per pass

Ben 1st 2 seasons combined
20 INT in 563 Attempts
3.5 percent INT rate per pass


Luck rookie season
18 INTs in 537
3.3 percent INT rate per pass


For all you, "Luck has 18 Int!!!!" people... you just got owned.

Black@Gold Forever32
12-14-2012, 02:56 PM
Ben rookie season
11 INTs in 295 Attempts
3.7 percent INT rate per pass

Ben 1st 2 seasons combined
20 INT in 563 Attempts
3.5 percent INT rate per pass


Luck rookie season
18 INTs in 537
3.3 percent INT rate per pass


For all you, "Luck has 18 Int!!!!" people... you just got owned.

I posted their INT percentage and TD percentage in my post......Ben's was 3.7 his rookie year and Luck's is 3.4 this year....Not much of a difference.......Ben's TD percentage was 5.8 his rookie year and Luck's 3.4.....Nobody got owned....lol

While you talk about Ben not throwing as much as Luck...Factor in the reasons why......Plus if Ben had then he could have thrown 30 TD passes his rookie and put the stats like some of these rookie QB's have been posting lately.....Don't discard what Ben did his first couple years in the league.....Ben threw 17 TD's passes his first two years with not even having 300 pass attempts....

Go ahead and love the QBR all you want its flawed just like the NFL passer rating.....You babbled on about situational football but Ben has been money on 3rd down all year.......

I agree with you that Luck was the better QB prospect when look at pure talent.....But Luck is still 13 games into his rookie year......

NeilPatrickBanana
12-14-2012, 03:13 PM
I posted their INT percentage and TD percentage in my post......Ben's was 3.7 his rookie year and Luck's is 3.4 this year....Not much of a difference.......Ben's TD percentage was 5.8 his rookie year and Luck's 3.4.....Nobody got owned....lol

While you talk about Ben not throwing as much as Luck...Factor in the reasons why......Plus if Ben had then he could have thrown 30 TD passes his rookie and put the stats like some of these rookie QB's have been posting lately.....Don't discard what Ben did his first couple years in the league.....Ben threw 17 TD's passes his first two years with not even having 300 pass attempts....

Go ahead and love the QBR all you want its flawed just like the NFL passer rating.....You babbled on about situational football but Ben has been money on 3rd down all year.......

I agree with you that Luck was the better QB prospect when look at pure talent.....But Luck is still 13 games into his rookie year......

Ben played on a contender, with a hall of fame running back in his rookie year. His opportunity to throw TDs was far easier. Wouldn't you agree? You seem to be missing the point. If Ben had the opportunity to throw more, the defenses he faced as a rookie would've been more geared towards that, and thus more difficult. You know that the Bettis/Parker, Oline, ground game in Ben's rookie year took a ton of pressure off of him. It kept Safeties in the box, teams had to always play the run first. Andrew Luck doesn't have that benefit... Andrew Luck is the focus of the defense.

QBR is a great statistic. Ben's got a top 10 QBR... and QBR recognizes his ability on 3rd downs. I'm sorry if the stat is too complicated for you. But it's an incredibly accurate representation of all QB actions. It accounts for balls thrown away, it accounts for the play of the offensive line, it accounts for penalties, it accounts for QBs that can scramble, it accounts for QBs who have option/run skills.

Generally, I find that people that simply dismiss statistics either don't understand them, or don't like that the stats don't fit their preconceived beliefs.

I'll wait for you to point out the statistical "flaw" you say exists in QBR, before deciding whether to take you seriously or not. I'm sure you can google/find something

connecticutsteel
12-14-2012, 04:00 PM
everyone knows that the colt's threw the season to get luck because they thought payton was done and luck is cheaper

Real Deal Steel
12-14-2012, 04:06 PM
Peyton threw 23 picks as a rookie.

Luck has thrown twice as many passes this year (537 w/ 3 games left), than Ben threw in his first 2 seasons combined (563)

And that doesn't mean jack. You don't know what Luck will do with a world championship on the line. Ben has proven two out of three times what he can do.

Luck is in a system that passes waaaaaaaaay more then the System Ben was in most of his career. Luck is a good QB. Just how good we will see.

NeilPatrickBanana
12-14-2012, 04:18 PM
And that doesn't mean jack. You don't know what Luck will do with a world championship on the line. Ben has proven two out of three times what he can do.

Luck is in a system that passes waaaaaaaaay more then the System Ben was in most of his career. Luck is a good QB. Just how good we will see.

yea, Ben really proved it in super bowl XL... lol

fans are such homers.

Ben is awesome
Luck is way more talented

Luck is in a system, and performing as good or better in it (QBR) as a rookie, then Ben did IN THE SAME SYSTEM as a veteran...

You can nitpick a singular stat or try to frame in around certain time periods... whatever

Here's the truth:
Luck-Rookie-Arians Offense = 67.4 QBR
Ben-5th season-Arians Offense = 46.8
Ben-6th season-Arians Offense = 67.3
Ben-8th season-Arians Offense = 64.1
Ben-9th season-Arians Offense = 63.6

LASVEGASGUY
12-14-2012, 04:26 PM
everyone knows that the colt's threw the season to get luck because they thought payton was done and luck is cheaper

In hindsight this was brilliant. You lose a franchise QB you had for 15 years and now you gained another that may be around another 15 years. So you tank one season for 30 years of franchise QB play. Absolutely brilliant, I say!

NeilPatrickBanana
12-14-2012, 04:34 PM
Luck-Rookie-Arians Offense = 67.4 QBR
Ben-5th season-Arians Offense = 46.8
Ben-6th season-Arians Offense = 67.3
Ben-8th season-Arians Offense = 64.1
Ben-9th season-Arians Offense = 63.6

If being objective counts for anything... lol

NYCsteelersfan
12-14-2012, 04:49 PM
Is someone in here using an ESPN invented stat to justify their sucking off of Luck? Yeah, there it is.

scudmissile29
12-14-2012, 05:06 PM
RG3 > Luck

Black@Gold Forever32
12-14-2012, 05:12 PM
Ben played on a contender, with a hall of fame running back in his rookie year. His opportunity to throw TDs was far easier. Wouldn't you agree? You seem to be missing the point. If Ben had the opportunity to throw more, the defenses he faced as a rookie would've been more geared towards that, and thus more difficult. You know that the Bettis/Parker, Oline, ground game in Ben's rookie year took a ton of pressure off of him. It kept Safeties in the box, teams had to always play the run first. Andrew Luck doesn't have that benefit... Andrew Luck is the focus of the defense.

QBR is a great statistic. Ben's got a top 10 QBR... and QBR recognizes his ability on 3rd downs. I'm sorry if the stat is too complicated for you. But it's an incredibly accurate representation of all QB actions. It accounts for balls thrown away, it accounts for the play of the offensive line, it accounts for penalties, it accounts for QBs that can scramble, it accounts for QBs who have option/run skills.

Generally, I find that people that simply dismiss statistics either don't understand them, or don't like that the stats don't fit their preconceived beliefs.

I'll wait for you to point out the statistical "flaw" you say exists in QBR, before deciding whether to take you seriously or not. I'm sure you can google/find something

That same contender that was 6-10 in 2003? I understand the ****ing QBR just fine....lol Every stat has flaws in them and Alex Smith having a higher QBR then Ben proves that......Sorry I can't take a stat serious when a bum like Alex Smith is ahead of Big Ben.....Alex Smith is a joke wouldn't you agree?....

Black@Gold Forever32
12-14-2012, 05:24 PM
Parker barely played Ben's rookie year...If you remember Duce Staley started out as the starting RB and then Bettis took over when Staley was hurt yet again......Again you're dismissing what Ben did his rookie just so you can praise your boy Luck......Ben still threw 17 TD's in less then 300 attempts....Ben had a hand in building those leads and then Cowher shut him down in the 2nd half by running the ball to kill the clock......

I love again how somebody mentions Ben's horrible Super Bowl XL performance without mentioning how Ben played great in three play-off games and was huge in the Steelers reaching Super Bowl XL.......You can go on all you want about the running game and defense even in Ben's rookie year but I highly doubt the Steelers make the play-offs with Maddox at QB in 2004.....Many of the so called experts didn't think the Steelers were a contender heading into 2004 since they were coming off a 6-10 season.............

NeilPatrickBanana
12-14-2012, 05:53 PM
Is someone in here using an ESPN invented stat to justify their sucking off of Luck? Yeah, there it is.

It's common for dumb people to hate stuff

It's not really ESPN invented either... Dean Oliver, PhD Statistics, who also invented ABBR (Advanced Basketball Metrics), created QBR

I'm sure you can google some stuff on the internet about how dumb QBR is and then you can tell me how you are smarter than the PhD guy

Clowns will be Clowns

NeilPatrickBanana
12-14-2012, 05:59 PM
That same contender that was 6-10 in 2003? I understand the ****ing QBR just fine....lol Every stat has flaws in them and Alex Smith having a higher QBR then Ben proves that......Sorry I can't take a stat serious when a bum like Alex Smith is ahead of Big Ben.....Alex Smith is a joke wouldn't you agree?....

No I wouldn't agree. I don't think Alex Smith is ANYWHERE near as talented as Ben. But the measurement of his performance is accurate. High comp %, low turnovers, 3rd down conversion... He was doing(this year) all the things that matter in scoring points, winning games, etc....

I like QBR, because it shows the value in a game manager at QB, in a world where fantasy football has made people stupid.

You want to praise Roethlisberger's early career, and then trash Alex Smith present career... when aside from the age/stage of career differences... they are very similar. Low attempts, high YPA, great defense, run first offense.... You must not watch other teams play football very often.

you want to pick and choose facts/stats when they fit your narrative

QBR, an advanced stat developed by a PhD, supports my opinion on Luck

NeilPatrickBanana
12-14-2012, 06:04 PM
Parker barely played Ben's rookie year...If you remember Duce Staley started out as the starting RB and then Bettis took over when Staley was hurt yet again......Again you're dismissing what Ben did his rookie just so you can praise your boy Luck......Ben still threw 17 TD's in less then 300 attempts....Ben had a hand in building those leads and then Cowher shut him down in the 2nd half by running the ball to kill the clock......

I love again how somebody mentions Ben's horrible Super Bowl XL performance without mentioning how Ben played great in three play-off games and was huge in the Steelers reaching Super Bowl XL.......You can go on all you want about the running game and defense even in Ben's rookie year but I highly doubt the Steelers make the play-offs with Maddox at QB in 2004.....Many of the so called experts didn't think the Steelers were a contender heading into 2004 since they were coming off a 6-10 season.............

Smith had 13 TDs in 217 attempts (0.059 per) before injury this year, and 17 in 273/0.062 last year ... but he sucks. While you praise Ben (17 in 295/0.057 per)

Are you going to play the rookie card now?

The truth is, that the lack of an advanced metric measuring QBs for so long has left people kind of dumb to understanding QB talent

Black@Gold Forever32
12-14-2012, 06:08 PM
No I wouldn't agree. I don't think Alex Smith is ANYWHERE near as talented as Ben. But the measurement of his performance is accurate. High comp %, low turnovers, 3rd down conversion... He was doing(this year) all the things that matter in scoring points, winning games, etc....

I like QBR, because it shows the value in a game manager at QB, in a world where fantasy football has made people stupid.

You want to praise Roethlisberger's early career, and then trash Alex Smith present career... when aside from the age/stage of career differences... they are very similar. Low attempts, high YPA, great defense, run first offense.... You must not watch other teams play football very often.

you want to pick and choose facts/stats when they fit your narrative

QBR, an advanced stat developed by a PhD, supports my opinion on Luck

Yea I don't watch other teams games...I only have had the Sunday tix since 2000 so I watch plenty of other teams games....lol Ok nice try.............Alex Smith has a nice QBR he is all of sudden a good NFL QB.....lol By the way I watched Smith play in college and it was evident he was a product of Urban Meyer's system at Utah........Smith was a bust who finally had a few decent seasons......Ben was a very good QB in his first couple years and elevated his game as an overall QB...........Yea so Alex Smith compares....lol The fact you would even try to compare any part of Smith's career to Ben's career is beyond laughable.....

Great an advanced stat developed by a PhD has Smith ranked higher then Ben....So it must be perfect right?....Like I said all stats are flawed in one way or another.......

Black@Gold Forever32
12-14-2012, 06:13 PM
Smith had 13 TDs in 217 attempts (0.059 per) before injury this year, and 17 in 273/0.062 last year ... but he sucks. While you praise Ben (17 in 295/0.057 per)

Are you going to play the rookie card now?

The truth is, that the lack of an advanced metric measuring QBs for so long has left people kind of dumb to understanding QB talent

Smith was horrible is first few years and all of sudden he finally showed something as a QB the past few years...........The fact remains Ben wasn't given a chance like some of these other rookie QBs and handcuffed by Cowher but still played well his first couple seasons....Then from there Ben elevated his game and improved as an overall QB.........

$teelersRule
12-14-2012, 06:45 PM
QBR is not a "stat" something cant be called a stat if it is partially based on opinion... oh yeah a throw away there seemed like a good idea.... higher grade! It is actually a complete joke, QBR is something that is based on guys in the basement of ESPN deciding how a QB preforms in "situational football" to form a grade. To call that grade a stat is laughable.

SteelCityKid5
12-14-2012, 06:58 PM
Is the Pro Bowl even relevant anymore? Nope.

SuperSteelers
12-14-2012, 10:57 PM
I agree with you about Luck being more talented.....Andrew Luck has everything you want in a QB prospect....I watched Luck play while he was at Stanford and I agree the sky is the limit for Luck.....But Luck's NFL career is still in the early stages that we all really don't know how good or great Luck will be......So I look at Luck at having the potential to be one of the best.....

But ESPN's QBR rating is as big of joke as the NFL QB rating........Luck has 18 INT's this year and Ben only has 5 so I have major problems with them being so close in QBR...I understand there is more than just INT's when factoring in QBR......But I think its a flaw stat as much as the NFL's QR rating......

Looking at their rookie years its hard to compare since you're right Luck is asked to thrown a lot more then Ben.........But that was Cowher ball....Build a lead and then just run the football to kill the clock......But you mentioned Luck taking over a team that just won 2 games the year before and you're right.....But Ben also came in the 2nd game of the 04 season to replace an injured Maddox and the Steelers only won 6 games in 2003.........Of course the 2004 Steelers were a much better team then 2012 Colts but I doubt the 2004 Steelers make the play-offs with Maddox.......So Ben was also a key player in that team reaching the AFC title game that season and only losing 1 game in the regular season......

But back to the stats......Ben still threw 17 TD's in just 295 pass attempts so his TD percentage was 5.8 his rookie year.....Luck has thrown 18 TD's while having 537 pass attempts so far...Luck's TD percentage; is 3.4..........So if Ben did throw the ball as much as Luck his rookie Ben might have thrown 30 TD's.......Ben and Luck's INT percentage; were close in their rookie years....Ben's was 3.7 and Luck's 3.4........Luck does also have 5 rushing TD's and Ben did only have 1 his rookie year.....

Sorry for the rambling but I do think people forget how good Ben was his rookie year and how much of a factor he was on the 2004 and 2005 Steelers.......They knock Ben for not having the pass attempts but I think that is stupid....It proved to be a winning formula those seasons but at the sametime if Ben had the chance to throw more he would have had the stats like most of these rookie QB's are putting up lately.......Ben also led a team to the Super Bowl and won his 2nd year......His play in three play-off games were huge in the Steelers reaching Super Bowl XL......Will be interesting to see if Luck can match that....He has the talent.....But will he?

And to think Ben hasn't had much of an offensive line since his rookie season. Imagine his stats today if he had played behind an oline like Brady and Peyton has had in their careers.

jpele
12-14-2012, 11:34 PM
Luck is ok,we'll see how he fairs out next year when everyone has tape on him. Wasn't Cam Newton going to be the next great QB?

NeilPatrickBanana
12-15-2012, 12:08 AM
QBR is not a "stat" something cant be called a stat if it is partially based on opinion... oh yeah a throw away there seemed like a good idea.... higher grade! It is actually a complete joke, QBR is something that is based on guys in the basement of ESPN deciding how a QB preforms in "situational football" to form a grade. To call that grade a stat is laughable.

no, QBR was developed by a statistician with a PhD. but you're probably way smarter than that guy

NeilPatrickBanana
12-15-2012, 12:11 AM
Yea I don't watch other teams games...I only have had the Sunday tix since 2000 so I watch plenty of other teams games....lol Ok nice try.............Alex Smith has a nice QBR he is all of sudden a good NFL QB.....lol By the way I watched Smith play in college and it was evident he was a product of Urban Meyer's system at Utah........Smith was a bust who finally had a few decent seasons......Ben was a very good QB in his first couple years and elevated his game as an overall QB...........Yea so Alex Smith compares....lol The fact you would even try to compare any part of Smith's career to Ben's career is beyond laughable.....

Great an advanced stat developed by a PhD has Smith ranked higher then Ben....So it must be perfect right?....Like I said all stats are flawed in one way or another.......

you see advanced stats as flawed because they don't conform to your beliefs

i see advanced stats as performance facts

jnes1216
12-15-2012, 12:58 AM
I wonder what Dan Marino's QBR was? I know the number of his Super Bowl rings = 0. Great stats are one thing but performing well in the big games is another. Time will tell if Luck comes thru.

His estimated QBR in 1984 (super bowl appearance year) was 95.8. Sometimes the car's shiny but it doesn't take you anywhere... just sayin.

DBR96A
12-15-2012, 01:12 AM
no, QBR was developed by a statistician with a PhD. but you're probably way smarter than that guy

"It's football, not rocket science." -Terry Bradshaw

jpele
12-15-2012, 01:13 PM
Stats are for losers. Take Peyton Manning his QBR it makes no mention that he had one of the best pass blocking lines protecting him, what would his rating be had he played behind the Steelers line from the past few years?

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2

Black@Gold Forever32
12-15-2012, 02:36 PM
you see advanced stats as flawed because they don't conform to your beliefs

i see advanced stats as performance facts

My problem with the QBR has nothing to do with my beliefs......I pointed out the flaw of having Alex Smith ranked higher then Big Ben.....I think most would agree Smith is nowhere near the QB that Ben is or ever will be....If you like the QBR then great that is your opinion but I just can't take it serious....Its more in depth then the NFLs QB rating which I also said is a joke......You seem to be a stat guy and that is cool but stats don't tell the whole story about a player....I like stats to but I don't use them to make my final judgments on a player.....

BlitzburghRockCity
12-15-2012, 11:10 PM
Very well said.

Luck is the new kid on the block and everybody thinks he's the greatest thing since sliced bread. Everyone fell in love with Cam Newton last year and now look at him. It's not uncommon for a rookie QB to come in and have a good season, even great depending on what stats you look at most. Stats can reflect just about anything you want really and that's the truth.

Luck has a ton of interceptions but he's also making a lot of plays; there's a reason he was drafted as high as he was. He'll come back down to earth at some point, they always do.


I agree with you about Luck being more talented.....Andrew Luck has everything you want in a QB prospect....I watched Luck play while he was at Stanford and I agree the sky is the limit for Luck.....But Luck's NFL career is still in the early stages that we all really don't know how good or great Luck will be......So I look at Luck at having the potential to be one of the best.....

But ESPN's QBR rating is as big of joke as the NFL QB rating........Luck has 18 INT's this year and Ben only has 5 so I have major problems with them being so close in QBR...I understand there is more than just INT's when factoring in QBR......But I think its a flaw stat as much as the NFL's QR rating......

Looking at their rookie years its hard to compare since you're right Luck is asked to thrown a lot more then Ben.........But that was Cowher ball....Build a lead and then just run the football to kill the clock......But you mentioned Luck taking over a team that just won 2 games the year before and you're right.....But Ben also came in the 2nd game of the 04 season to replace an injured Maddox and the Steelers only won 6 games in 2003.........Of course the 2004 Steelers were a much better team then 2012 Colts but I doubt the 2004 Steelers make the play-offs with Maddox.......So Ben was also a key player in that team reaching the AFC title game that season and only losing 1 game in the regular season......

But back to the stats......Ben still threw 17 TD's in just 295 pass attempts so his TD percentage was 5.8 his rookie year.....Luck has thrown 18 TD's while having 537 pass attempts so far...Luck's TD percentage; is 3.4..........So if Ben did throw the ball as much as Luck his rookie Ben might have thrown 30 TD's.......Ben and Luck's INT percentage; were close in their rookie years....Ben's was 3.7 and Luck's 3.4........Luck does also have 5 rushing TD's and Ben did only have 1 his rookie year.....

Sorry for the rambling but I do think people forget how good Ben was his rookie year and how much of a factor he was on the 2004 and 2005 Steelers.......They knock Ben for not having the pass attempts but I think that is stupid....It proved to be a winning formula those seasons but at the sametime if Ben had the chance to throw more he would have had the stats like most of these rookie QB's are putting up lately.......Ben also led a team to the Super Bowl and won his 2nd year......His play in three play-off games were huge in the Steelers reaching Super Bowl XL......Will be interesting to see if Luck can match that....He has the talent.....But will he?

LevonKirkland99
12-16-2012, 12:20 AM
Luck is the real deal though, especially in few years when all the elite QBs retire....why hate on Luck?

The Lakelander
12-16-2012, 02:31 AM
At least idiot non-Steeler fans seem to think so despite his 18 TD passes and 18 INTs, considering he has 15,545 more votes for the Pro Bowl (http://triblive.com/sports/nfl/3126376-85/nfl-league-pro#axzz2F06E1Dtv) than Roethlisberger does.

Look through Ben's stats history ... 18 TD passes is the norm for Ben ... Andrew Luck? ... too soon to say (given that he plays in BA's system; which begs the question ... was it BA or Ben who failed in the Red Zone?) ... but he's off to a strong start ...

Black@Gold Forever32
12-16-2012, 03:25 AM
Look through Ben's stats history ... 18 TD passes is the norm for Ben ... Andrew Luck? ... too soon to say (given that he plays in BA's system; which begs the question ... was it BA or Ben who failed in the Red Zone?) ... but he's off to a strong start ...

Stats are very misleading........Ben didn't even throw 300 passes in 2004 or 2005.....But had 17 in both seasons.......you have to look at his TD percentage from those seasons...........But since you mentioned BA lets just focus on Ben's TD passes with BA as OC....

07-32
08-17
09-26
10-17
11-21

113 in five seasons under BA.....So 17 wasn't the norm under BA but 23 was.........Plus I remember at least 5 dropped TD passes in that 09 season....Drops from Sweed, Mendenhall, Ward....Ben only played 12 games in 2010 thanks to the suspension or those totals would have been even higher.......

The Lakelander
12-16-2012, 04:34 AM
.........Plus I remember at least 5 dropped TD passes in that 09 season....Drops from Sweed, Washington, Mendenhall, Ward....Ben only played 12 games in 2010 thanks to the suspension or those totals would have been even higher.......

I happen very much to agree ... sometimes I make my case in very inconspicuous ways ... you did well to take the bait and run with what I was getting at ...

The Lakelander
12-16-2012, 05:31 AM
Sorry ... at work ... couldn't finish my thought ...

Ben was better in the Red Zone than his numbers showed under Arians ... and I think Arians took far too much of that heat ...

Luck will be compared, in the end, more with the QB's from his class ... RGIII, Tannehill, Foles, Wilson, etc ... But he'll likely eclipse anything statistically that Ben ever accomplishes ... He's already being used far more aggressively in the pass game ...

Ben is Ben and Ben will be measured by his own standard ... we all know that!

Black@Gold Forever32
12-16-2012, 05:51 AM
Sorry ... at work ... couldn't finish my thought ...

Ben was better in the Red Zone than his numbers showed under Arians ... and I think Arians took far too much of that heat ...

Luck will be compared, in the end, more with the QB's from his class ... RGIII, Tannehill, Foles, Wilson, etc ... But he'll likely eclipse anything statistically that Ben ever accomplishes ... He's already being used far more aggressively in the pass game ...

Ben is Ben and Ben will be measured by his own standard ... we all know that!

Overall I liked BA, I thought it was time for a change since BA was the whipping boy in Pittsburgh and really it was in BA's best interest to move on......I wasn't really taking the bait but just adding to what you were saying......

ChucktownSteeler
12-16-2012, 07:44 AM
Overall I liked BA, I thought it was time for a change since BA was the whipping boy in Pittsburgh and really it was in BA's best interest to move on......I wasn't really taking the bait but just adding to what you were saying......

It took me a while to understand BA as well and I agree he was the favorite whipping boy in Pittsburgh. Could you imagine it right now if he were still there? Last season there were many fumbles and drops in the red-zone - Mendy, Heath, Mewelde Moore, etc. that BA unfairly was criticized for.

The down side of him leaving is you have a great "one trick pony" (LOL) WR in Wallace that just doesn't fit this dink-dank-dunk offense. Wait till he joins BA and LUCK next season on the turf field in Indy. Luck TD's total will definitely rise!

LevonKirkland99
12-16-2012, 08:22 AM
Ooooooow, Wallace going to Indy next year? Ship him the #$@# out as soon as possible.

ChucktownSteeler
12-16-2012, 09:12 AM
Ooooooow, Wallace going to Indy next year? Ship him the #$@# out as soon as possible.

In the right system he can be very, very dangerous. Just not so much in this dink-dank-dunk offense we now employ.

Ironman92
12-16-2012, 12:00 PM
Pro Bowl

Lol

31st in QB rating....about the same in completion %......almost the same number of TD/INT

He's hugely overrated right now....he's going to be GREAT....right now he's very lucky and very good in the 4th

NeilPatrickBanana
12-17-2012, 09:18 AM
My problem with the QBR has nothing to do with my beliefs......I pointed out the flaw of having Alex Smith ranked higher then Big Ben.....I think most would agree Smith is nowhere near the QB that Ben is or ever will be....If you like the QBR then great that is your opinion but I just can't take it serious....Its more in depth then the NFLs QB rating which I also said is a joke......You seem to be a stat guy and that is cool but stats don't tell the whole story about a player....I like stats to but I don't use them to make my final judgments on a player.....

You just did it. Your BELIEF is that Roethlisberger is vastly better than Smith. I'm not here to argue that... What QBR shows is that Smith PERFORMANCE THIS YEAR, was equally as effective as Roethlisberger's. But QBR isn't the only stat. It's just the best indicator of overall performance based on what we should value from our QB. You should be able to stratify and say, "Yes, Alex Smith has a very high QBR, but he is also protected by an excellent running game, an elite defense, and he only has to throw for 190 yards per game". QBR is a stat built upon other stats, for example Pass EPA, the Pass EPA is that "passing" portion of the QBR, if you look at just the Pass EPA, you would see that Alex Smith is 21st in the league (Ben is 7th, Luck is 14th). This probably equates more to your opinion of Alex Smith. What fans need to realize is that playing QB is made up of much more than JUST throwing the ball. If you look at Total EPA (Pass, Run, sack, penalty), Alex Smith ranks 20th. While I accept that QBR involves a lot of judgement, I think it is by far the best statistic being used in football today.

I don't use stats to make my judgement on players. I watch the game. Advanced stats are there to bring context to the performances we see.

When you watch Luck, you should be able to SEE the talent level (elite). THEN you can look at the stats to compare what you see to what the advanced statistics show.