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NeilPatrickBanana
09-24-2012, 01:08 PM
This is a painful statistic

I blame Lebeau a lot. I think his schemes and philosophy are outdated, and he has never demonstrated an ability to adjust in game. I think there is TOO much tape available on the Steelers defense that has remained essentially the same for a decade.

BUT

Mike Tomlin deserves a ton of blame for the following results as well... 4th Quarter Comebacks and Game Winning Drives have been far too common during his tenure.

Yesterday's loss was typical... I've seen this loss too many times. The inability to get stops in the 4th quarter has been a problem during Tomlin's entire tenure. See below :

2007
Denver (GWD)
NY Jets (4QC/GWD)
Jacksonville (GWD)
Jacksonville (playoffs, 4QC/GWD)

2008
NY Giants (4QC/GWD)
Indianapolis (4QC/GWD)

2009
Chicago (4QC/GWD)
Cincinnati (4QC/GWD)
Cincinnati (GWD)
Kansas City (4QC/GWD)
Baltimore (4QC/GWD)
Oakland (4QC/GWD)

2010
Baltimore (4QC/GWD)
NY Jets (GWD)

2011
Baltimore (4QC/GWD)
Houston (GWD)
Denver (playoffs, GWD)

2012
Denver (4QC/GWD)
Oakland (4QC/GWD)

Maybe that's not a bad statistic for a lot of teams... but for a team that has largely been a contender over that period, it's pretty terrible

NeilPatrickBanana
09-24-2012, 01:09 PM
And that doesn't even count 4th quarter comebacks that DIDN'T result in losses... like the Super Bowl, Jets AFCCG, etc

FlatsSteeler
09-24-2012, 01:16 PM
I have been saying it for a couple of years now.....Tomlin is NOT a Game day Coach....PERIOD.....

ChucktownSteeler
09-24-2012, 01:39 PM
Wasn't there a stat that Cowher was 154-1-1 when leading by 10 points at half-time?

God, I miss Billy.

The Lakelander
09-24-2012, 01:40 PM
When an offensive line can match up and adequately block, with their 5 linemen, against our 5 base 3-4 "in the box" rushers, then it is going to be a nightmere for our Steelers as opposing offenses impose their will upon us ...

Ziggy Hood is not a capable sack master ... in LeBeau's scheme Hood is nothing but an anchor (as was Aaron Smith/Orpheus Roye before him) ...

Casey Hampton is not a capable sack master ... in LeBeau's scheme Hampton is nothing but an anchor (as was Joel Steed before him) ...

Brett Keisel is not a capable sack master ... in LeBeau's scheme Keisel is nothing but an anchor (as was Kimo von Oelhoffen/Kevin Henry before him) ...

But at least Roye/Steed/Henry (moreso than Smith/(young) Hamp/von Oelhoeffen) were capable of breaking through the blocks and getting some heat on opposing QB's once in a while ...

How can any offense block these five rushers? ... Woodley - Hood - Hampton - Keisel - Carter/Worilds ... Please explain how? ...

Please explain how our 5 rushers have gotten ZERO heat on opposing QB's? ...

I thought Hood was "a beast"? ... "strongest man on the team"? ...

I thought Keisel was something special? ... "fear the beard"? ...

THIS defensive line sucks! ...

Keisel is a fan fav and a legend because of his beard ... but I can assure you ... no LG/LT in the NFL fears Brett Keisel among Keisel's peers in the NFL! ...

Without a dominant defensive front 3 in the 3-4, the outside LB's (who are undersized by comparison to the LT and RT) are overworked and physically manhandled more often than not ...

Woodley (like Kevin Greene once did) should overwhelm and dominate the RT on virtually every set of downs ... Why isn't he? ...

Here's why ...

The 3-4 scheme at the NFL level requires aggressive, strong, unblockable players at the point of attack (the trenches) ...

The Pittsburgh Steelers are weak at the point of attack ... and therefore NFL teams do not fear facing us any more ...

steelchamp204
09-24-2012, 01:43 PM
Wasn't there a stat that Cowher was 154-1-1 when leading by 10 points at half-time?

God, I miss Billy.

I dont think it was that good, but it was damn good.

ChucktownSteeler
09-24-2012, 01:44 PM
I dont think it was that good, but it was damn good.

Check it. It was phenomenally unbelievable.

ChucktownSteeler
09-24-2012, 01:45 PM
When an offensive line can match up and adequately block, with their 5 linemen, against our 5 base 3-4 "in the box" rushers, then it is going to be a nightmere for our Steelers as opposing offenses impose their will upon us ...

Ziggy Hood is not a capable sack master ... in LeBeau's scheme Hood is nothing but an anchor (as was Aaron Smith/Orpheus Roye before him) ...

Casey Hampton is not a capable sack master ... in LeBeau's scheme Hampton is nothing but an anchor (as was Joel Steed before him) ...

Brett Keisel is not a capable sack master ... in LeBeau's scheme Keisel is nothing but an anchor (as was Kimo von Oelhoffen/Kevin Henry before him) ...

But at least Roye/Steed/Henry (moreso than Smith/(young) Hamp/von Oelhoeffen) were capable of breaking through the blocks and getting some heat on opposing QB's once in a while ...

How can any offense block these five rushers? ... Woodley - Hood - Hampton - Keisel - Carter/Worilds ... Please explain how? ...

Please explain how our 5 rushers have gotten ZERO heat on opposing QB's? ...

I thought Hood was "a beast"? ... "strongest man on the team"? ...

I thought Keisel was something special? ... "fear the beard"? ...

THIS defensive line sucks! ...

Keisel is a fan fav and a legend because of his beard ... but I can assure you ... no LG/LT in the NFL fears Brett Keisel among Keisel's peers in the NFL! ...

Without a dominant defensive front 3 in the 3-4, the outside LB's (who are undersized by comparison to the LT and RT) are overworked and physically manhandled more often than not ...

Woodley (like Kevin Greene once did) should overwhelm and dominate the RT on virtually every set of downs ... Why isn't he? ...

Here's why ...

The 3-4 scheme at the NFL level requires aggressive, strong, unblockable players at the point of attack (the trenches) ...

The Pittsburgh Steelers are weak at the point of attack ... and therefore NFL teams do not fear facing us any more ...

I'd rather see McClendon, Heyward, and Al Woods start. You know the definition of "insanity".....................

Goodfrom55
09-24-2012, 02:12 PM
Steelers D-Linemen are told to occupy gaps and not get up the field. They never get penetration on a pass rush and right now, are not finshing.

Disturbing stat from Yesterday - Palmer attempted 34 passes for 203 yards. That is an average of < 6 yards per attempt. At one point will these defensive minded coaches (tomlin and DLB) tell the corners to play press and take away the underneath stuff that was open all day long? I love DLB, but the days of him getting a pass from me are over. He and the rest of the defense have to be held accountable at some point.

Zachintosh66
09-24-2012, 02:22 PM
NeilPatrickBanana, What about being out coached in all aspects during the GB superbowl?

Steveo
09-24-2012, 02:26 PM
I think what was more disturbing was the number of fumbles committed by our receivers and running backs. That is where the real blame lies. Now whether that's a result of bad coaching, or just a lack of respect for ones opponent is up for debate.
Sent from my Lumia 710 using Board Express

Nolrog
09-24-2012, 07:33 PM
Disturbing stat from Yesterday -

An even more disturbing stat from yesterday:

21 rushes for 119 yards, a 5.7 yard average, and the longest rush given up in like 5 years. We used to be able to stop the run. Now we can't stop anything. That's very concerning.

Nolrog
09-24-2012, 07:36 PM
NeilPatrickBanana, What about being out coached in all aspects during the GB superbowl?

I don't see them being out coached. Ben threw a pick-6 early in that game and even with that, if Mendenhall doesn't fumble, we go on to win.

steelersbabex25
09-24-2012, 07:55 PM
:banging: I don't understand how Mike Tomlin still gets blame. He has had a phenomenal first 5 years of coaching. Yes, he has his downsides, as all coaches do. Yes, there have been some bad loses. But HELLO everyone!! Every coach has bad loses. I am so sick of hearing this bullshit about all our loses being Mike Tomlin's fault.

DBR96A
09-24-2012, 08:02 PM
To clarify, Bill Cowher had a record of 154-1-1 when the Steelers had a lead of more than 10 points in a game. In other words, the Steelers won 154 of 156 regular-season games in which they had a lead of at least 11 points at some point.

I distinctly remember Cowher's teams blowing 10-point leads against the Chiefs in the 1993 AFC Wild Card Playoffs, and against the Chargers in the 1994 AFC Championship Game.

steelspikes
09-24-2012, 08:37 PM
Wasn't there a stat that Cowher was 154-1-1 when leading by 10 points at half-time?

God, I miss Billy.
My thoughts exactly. Under Cowher a 4th quarter lead was money,or better: gold! Under Tomlin it's a very flimsy promissory note, or worse, a mortgage-backed security. You know that a lead in MT's hands is like crack during an ATF raid: it's either goin' down the toilet or you're gettin' busted.
Of course, under Cowher the Steelers had killer defenses, an O- line that could run-block, and Jerome Bettis, who could pound the rock and nail the lid shut against the possibility of teams mounting comebacks.
Yea, I know Cowher's teams lost some heartbreaking meltdowns...will never forget the '94 AFC Championship Game. But so many games were closed-out by a rock-solid Steeler "D"and run game.

steelersbabex25
09-24-2012, 09:09 PM
Mike Tomlin can not control how the players play. It's the same at any sport and at any level of play. I played volleyball in high school. If we had a lead at the end of the game and weren't able to finish it, we didn't all go up to the coach and say, "Coach, why didn't you do something different so we could have won that game?"

A game going the wrong way doesn't mean that it wasn't coached well or that the HC could have done something different to prevent the loss. Maybe it just means that the players sucked. Anybody ever consider that?

steelersbabex25
09-24-2012, 09:13 PM
And for everyone saying that Tomlin isn't doing a good job bringing in new talent since he's come in to Pittsburgh (which is pretty much everyone, evidently), give me a break. The defense of '05-'08 ish years-the defense that most of you are saying Mike Tomlin "inherited"-was one of the best defensive units in the history of the NFL. If you expect any head coach to keep drafting talent like that and have a defense like we had in the '08 superbowl, you're gonna have a bad time.

And need I remind everyone that Tomlin has pretty effectively redesigned our entire offense since he's come in and made the Steelers arguably one of the most explosive and effective offensive units in the entire league. Does he not get any credit for that?

LatrobePA
09-24-2012, 09:16 PM
MT took over a SB team, slowly but surely the players he inherited are fading away leaving his picks, and quite frankly they're not producing. So I ask you, how can't you start pointing fingers at Tomlin??

steelersbabex25
09-24-2012, 09:23 PM
MT took over a SB team, slowly but surely the players he inherited are fading away leaving his picks, and quite frankly they're not producing. So I ask you, how can't you start pointing fingers at Tomlin??

Really? Is Mike Wallace not producing? Is Antonio Brown not producing? Is Pouncey not producing?

Tomlin really came in at a pretty terrible time. He had one or two good years of solid production from the vets, and now he's losing pretty much everyone of any importance on the defense. The man has to rebuild an entire unit. Give him some time.

LarryNJ
09-24-2012, 09:48 PM
MT took over a SB team

:nono:

MT took over an 8-8 team that didn't make the playoffs. :lol: I think they lost a game where the defense didn't give up a TD too. And you'll never confuse that 2006 draft class with 1994 :)

LatrobePA
09-24-2012, 10:07 PM
Really? Is Mike Wallace not producing? Is Antonio Brown not producing? Is Pouncey not producing?

Tomlin really came in at a pretty terrible time. He had one or two good years of solid production from the vets, and now he's losing pretty much everyone of any importance on the defense. The man has to rebuild an entire unit. Give him some time.

Really?? That's all you can pick 3?? How many **** *** scrubs and wasted picks?? A hell of a lot more than good ones, shall we start counting??

steelersbabex25
09-24-2012, 10:25 PM
Really?? That's all you can pick 3?? How many **** *** scrubs and wasted picks?? A hell of a lot more than good ones, shall we start counting??

Because every single pick under Bill Cowher was just phenomenal and totally lived up to all expectations.

You really think that out of all draft picks that there's going to be more hits than misses? You're living a delusional life my friend.

LatrobePA
09-24-2012, 10:33 PM
Because every single pick under Bill Cowher was just phenomenal and totally lived up to all expectations.

You really think that out of all draft picks that there's going to be more hits than misses? You're living a delusional life my friend.

Tomlin is getting fat and lazy just like his team. Take a look at him!

I won't sit here an argue this topic, it's a losing battle just like bitching about politics!

steelchamp204
09-24-2012, 10:34 PM
Because every single pick under Bill Cowher was just phenomenal and totally lived up to all expectations.

You really think that out of all draft picks that there's going to be more hits than misses? You're living a delusional life my friend.

I think he was mostly pointing out on the defensive side of the ball, lets admit. Tomlin did inherit a really good team.

Big T
09-24-2012, 10:38 PM
Really?? That's all you can pick 3?? How many **** *** scrubs and wasted picks?? A hell of a lot more than good ones, shall we start counting??

During Tomlin's tenure they've missed on one first round pick (Hood)... One. Before Tomlin and now the Steelers have always been very good in the 1st and extremely inconsistent after round one. Please try and act like that started when Tomlin took over. Yes Theyve missed on some second and third rounders but so did Cowher (Anthony Smith, Willie Reid, Trai Essex, Ricardo Colclough, Alonzo Jackson, etc...) and like Cowher's drafts, theyve also hit on some gems after the 1st and in late rounds (Woodley, Wallace, Brown)... Not to mention Gilbert is a capable RT who is good in pass protection and getting better in the run game.

Let's not act like they've drafted complete **** while he's been here. 5 Pro Bowlers in 5 drafts (Timmons was 1st alternate in 2010-11)? Pretty decent if you act me.

steelersbabex25
09-24-2012, 10:44 PM
I think he was mostly pointing out on the defensive side of the ball, lets admit. Tomlin did inherit a really good team.

Yeah, I already addressed this. He had a good defensive team. For a year or two. And now all the players the defense used to rely on are either gone or too old to contribute. He has to rebuild the entire defensive unit now from the ground up. You think after the last season/offseason that we had, losing so many players to age and injury, that he's going to be able to come back and produce a top 3 defense the next year? Again, delusional thinking.

LatrobePA
09-24-2012, 10:56 PM
I'm not impressed with Tomlin guys, it's my right. I'll cool off my posts (not that I was too bad).. This team plays flat just like their head coach...

NeilPatrickBanana
09-25-2012, 12:00 AM
I think Tomlin would be a good coach, if he was allowed to be a head coach. There isn't an established HC in the league who is forced to keep so much of his predecessors staff.

Dick Lebeau is the problem... not Tomlin.

BUT

Head Coaches own the results, and Tomlin's teams don't finish

LatrobePA
09-25-2012, 12:12 AM
I think Tomlin would be a good coach, if he was allowed to be a head coach. There isn't an established HC in the league who is forced to keep so much of his predecessors staff.

Dick Lebeau is the problem... not Tomlin.

BUT

Head Coaches own the results, and Tomlin's teams don't finish

Style points one of his famous sayings for barely winning! Bullshit, win big, run up the score, I'm sick of hearing it! That attitude only causes you to lose games in the 4th just like he does!

Black@Gold Forever32
09-25-2012, 12:34 AM
Yea I miss lossing AFC title games in Pittsburgh.....lol I'm not always happy with Tomlin but by no means I want Cowher back or miss him.....lol

connecticutsteel
09-25-2012, 05:18 AM
The problem with comparing Tomlin to Cowher is they coached in different eras the game has changed significantly since Cowher has coached and the 3-4 isn't outdated.Arizona runs the same defense as we do Dick LeBEAU taught Ray Horton that defense the difference is that they have younger and in some cases more talent than we do so as the young guys gain experence and we get areal Nose Tackle we will be ok . I do think that if we don't make the playoffs LeBeau will retire and Butler will grab the wheel

ChucktownSteeler
09-25-2012, 01:27 PM
:nono:

MT took over an 8-8 team that didn't make the playoffs. :lol: I think they lost a game where the defense didn't give up a TD too. And you'll never confuse that 2006 draft class with 1994 :)

8-8 is a deceptive stat for that team. They started the season 2-6 (Ben crash and appendectomy) and finished strong, down the stretch at 6-2, just missing the playoffs. There was an Oakland loss that year as well that stung.

ChucktownSteeler
09-25-2012, 01:28 PM
Tomlin is getting fat and lazy just like his team. Take a look at him!

I won't sit here an argue this topic, it's a losing battle just like bitching about politics!

He does look a little heavier, as does Haley.

ChucktownSteeler
09-25-2012, 01:29 PM
I'm not impressed with Tomlin guys, it's my right. I'll cool off my posts (not that I was too bad).. This team plays flat just like their head coach...

Whatever happened to the buck stops at the top?

ChucktownSteeler
09-25-2012, 01:32 PM
To clarify, Bill Cowher had a record of 154-1-1 when the Steelers had a lead of more than 10 points in a game. In other words, the Steelers won 154 of 156 regular-season games in which they had a lead of at least 11 points at some point.

I distinctly remember Cowher's teams blowing 10-point leads against the Chiefs in the 1993 AFC Wild Card Playoffs, and against the Chargers in the 1994 AFC Championship Game.

Thank you, I'll take that stat. I remember seeing that on one of Bill's last games. Maybe one of the most remarkable stats in any sport. I'll take 154-1-1, you can have the recent rash of 4th quarter melt downs. Say what you want, Cowher was a good coach.

cmerrifield
09-25-2012, 01:41 PM
He was only 161-99-1 overall. That stat is noway true. Only 7 wins he didn't lead by more than 10 points? Not possible.

sent from my Galaxy SIII using tapatalk 2

LarryNJ
09-25-2012, 02:10 PM
8-8 is a deceptive stat for that team. They started the season 2-6 (Ben crash and appendectomy) and finished strong, down the stretch at 6-2, just missing the playoffs. There was an Oakland loss that year as well that stung.

Of course we understand that they should have been better than 8-8. We cut them slack because we were still basking in the SB win after many years. This year we aren't as forgiving. :) Let's hope this Oakland loss doesn't kill us like that one did.

LarryNJ
09-25-2012, 02:12 PM
He was only 161-99-1 overall. That stat is noway true. Only 7 wins he didn't lead by more than 10 points? Not possible.

sent from my Galaxy SIII using tapatalk 2

You're correct. 108𢴏 still very impressive.

cmerrifield
09-25-2012, 04:17 PM
That's better I think

MySteelerNation
09-25-2012, 04:46 PM
I want to weigh in on this topic about Tomlin. As with Cowher, Tomlin is a "motivational" guy. Unfortunately in todays day an age, you need strategists. There has to be a creative way to stop today's offenses. When Cowher coached, defenses were allowed to be very physical, he didnt have to be as much of a strategist. He could go out there and say "knock em back, hit them hard at the line" and it was a legit strategy!! You cannot do that these days. And we dont have the personnel to cover. How many shut down corners did Cowher have???

The thing with Tomlin is that he is "too calm". Fans see that and automatically think that he isn't as passionate as Cowher was. Not the case.

however, I myself and on the edge with Tomlin. He needs to change something. I know Pittsburgh teams are never known to run up the score, and maybe that stems from the Rooney's being a class act and upholding their name... who knows. But it's got to stop. Score early, score often, keep scoring until the clock strikes zero--this offense is THAT good.

Another response to the poster that made a comment about DLB and Horton/Butler... DLB is the old school 34 Zone Blitz scheme. Take a look at what Horton is doing with faster, younger players and a modernized version of DLB's scheme. I think Butler will do the exact same thing with this defense once he becomes DC (which needs to be soon).

Today's NFL is speed. Defensively, we are not fast. Faster and more athletic players need to be drafted/signed for this 34 scheme to stay in the 'Burgh.

LatrobePA
09-25-2012, 05:04 PM
If we do end up with a 8-8 season one can't even get excited for the draft because I feel they'll screw it up. Right now I'm not real positive there will be a happy ending this year.

MySteelerNation
09-25-2012, 05:08 PM
I know there are those out there that want to give Tomlin some time to develop guys and whatnot, but think about this: Jim Harbaugh. 49ers. In ONE year this guy turned a mediocre QB into a solid game commander who doesnt turn the ball over, and he built a defense that is near impenetrable.

Not saying that is the norm. Not comparing him to Tomlin or the situations to each other. But it CAN be done.

ChucktownSteeler
09-25-2012, 09:57 PM
I want to weigh in on this topic about Tomlin. As with Cowher, Tomlin is a "motivational" guy. Unfortunately in todays day an age, you need strategists. There has to be a creative way to stop today's offenses. When Cowher coached, defenses were allowed to be very physical, he didnt have to be as much of a strategist. He could go out there and say "knock em back, hit them hard at the line" and it was a legit strategy!! You cannot do that these days. And we dont have the personnel to cover. How many shut down corners did Cowher have???

The thing with Tomlin is that he is "too calm". Fans see that and automatically think that he isn't as passionate as Cowher was. Not the case.

however, I myself and on the edge with Tomlin. He needs to change something. I know Pittsburgh teams are never known to run up the score, and maybe that stems from the Rooney's being a class act and upholding their name... who knows. But it's got to stop. Score early, score often, keep scoring until the clock strikes zero--this offense is THAT good.

Another response to the poster that made a comment about DLB and Horton/Butler... DLB is the old school 34 Zone Blitz scheme. Take a look at what Horton is doing with faster, younger players and a modernized version of DLB's scheme. I think Butler will do the exact same thing with this defense once he becomes DC (which needs to be soon).

Today's NFL is speed. Defensively, we are not fast. Faster and more athletic players need to be drafted/signed for this 34 scheme to stay in the 'Burgh.

I see nothing yet to convince me Tomlin will go down as a top strategist. A lot of time management issues as well, especially at the end of halfs.

C-town

LatrobePA
09-25-2012, 09:58 PM
Has he ever won a challenge? lol

ChucktownSteeler
09-25-2012, 10:00 PM
Has he ever won a challenge? lol

I was going to mention that.

SnakeEyes43
09-26-2012, 08:18 AM
I was going to mention that.

My wife and I were joking about that on sunday...he challenges some of the dumbest plays. Seems like every time he throws a flag, the replay is played and we see he is wrong. Who advises him to challenge plays?

FlatsSteeler
09-26-2012, 10:04 AM
I have been harping for three years Tomlin is NOT a "Game Day Coach"........As far as being a "Motivator" he seems like All Wind and No Rain"........

MySteelerNation
09-26-2012, 10:56 AM
I have been harping for three years Tomlin is NOT a "Game Day Coach"........As far as being a "Motivator" he seems like All Wind and No Rain"........

Oh, Cowher brought the rain alright... haha that man could get fired up

tburg68
09-26-2012, 01:27 PM
It's not just the amount of yards given up, its also when they are given up. The Steelers have failed at this far too much over the last three years.

Everything rises and falls on leadership. Tomlin is the leader, he gets the blame.

LatrobePA
09-26-2012, 01:30 PM
It started in the AZ SB, been a problem since..

NeilPatrickBanana
09-26-2012, 04:29 PM
It started in the AZ SB, been a problem since..

I agree

The tape of that game has been used against them for years, and they have yet to adjust...

NYCsteelersfan
09-28-2012, 02:29 AM
Tomlin was the wrong choice from day one. He inherited a Superbowl team and an elite quarterback, and that is the only reason he has had any success. I don't care if he's won a Superbowl. So has Brian Billick and Jon Gruden, and they did it with Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson. Roethlisberger is an elite quarterback; fourth best in the league overall in my opinion. If you put him on any one of the 31 other teams in the league, aside from a few teams, like the Browns or Bills, that team would most likely end up in the playoffs. Tomlin making the playoffs or even reaching the Superbowl cannot be considered an accomplishment when he has a quarterback like Roethlisberger. To the contrary, making the playoffs should be a requirement.