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TEEMONT
01-26-2007, 10:42 AM
Well with all of the thread hi-jacking going on about the 3/4 D and the 4/3 D, I figured I wouls search to see if there was an actual thread where the two were being compared, Mod's if I am wrong please combine this thread with that one, but I couldn't find one.

Anyways, I seriously think we could run a 4/3 right now. The only thing we would need to pick up is another good DT. This would eliminate LB depth issues right away, and we already have two very solid DT's with Hoke being number 2. The secondary wouldn't change much, but I really think a 4/3 would help us out with our depth issues at LB. Farrior is a natural OLB anyways, and Foote is proving he is a beast at MLB IMO.

What do you guys thinks?

K Train
01-26-2007, 10:46 AM
3-4>4-3 nufced

SteelerDan43
01-26-2007, 11:31 AM
I dont quite understand the hostility torwards the 4-3, it did win us 4 superbowls

SteelerFan87
01-26-2007, 11:38 AM
Yeah, but there's something about the 3-4 that just seems better. There's more blitzing, more complexity, and to a certain extent more aggressiveness. Plus I like the fact that for a long time we were the only team that used a 3-4, and now everybody's copying off of us, lol.

K Train
01-26-2007, 11:42 AM
I dont quite understand the hostility torwards the 4-3, it did win us 4 superbowls

Ok well, i think that athletes are miles ahead of where they were in the 70s and when you have the right personel (like we do) the more athletic linebackers and corners make for a more effective defensive scheme. With the 3-4, you still rush that 4th guy, its just a mystery from where and it can be hell for the opposing offense to pick up. I would rather have the 4 linebackers that can blitz as well as cover than a basic 4 pass rushers on every play....jmo

BlitzburghRockCity
01-26-2007, 11:49 AM
This team is not built to run a 4-3 it would take years of drafting players and FA aquisitions to make the change effectively. LB's in a 43 a different than a 34. They are asked to do different things in different ways and are generally bigger than our LB's are. the 43 defense of the 70's faced a much different league than it does now.

43 defensive lineman are BIG guys. In otherwords we would really need 4 Casey hamptons to run it effectively. Aaron Smith, Hoke, are too small. Keisel is borderline but could work. We'd need to draft all new DL and change our LB's too.

It's a whole new ball game when you run a 43 the majority of the time. It just a different style of defense. We run a 43 at times during games but its only for a few plays here and there or a series or too just to confuse the opposing offense.

The zoneblitz defense that we run, is a defense that when it's run right and firing on all cylinders it's VERY hard to stop. This team is a 34 team and from what Ive been reading and the fact that Lebeau and his staff are staying on, Tomlin knows we're built for it and that's what we're going to be the majority of the time. I dont want a 43 defense, the 34 is a wickedly aggressive scheme that we are very good at.

58Lambert
01-26-2007, 11:51 AM
... With the 3-4, you still rush that 4th guy, its just a mystery from where and it can be hell for the opposing offense to pick up. I would rather have the 4 linebackers that can blitz as well as cover than a basic 4 pass rushers on every play....jmo

:iagree: Exactly!!!! Very flexible scheme.

K Train
01-26-2007, 11:52 AM
. In otherwords we would really need 4 Casey hamptons to run it effectively.

ummm not quite lol

BlitzburghRockCity
01-26-2007, 11:55 AM
Dude, look at all the 43 teams in the league, the majority of them have a TON of beer on their front line. It's the way the defense is made because the majority of the pressure in a 43 comes from the front 4 as opposed to a 34 where the LB's get the most pressure.

There's no way our front 3 plus even Hoke or any of our guys could run a consistent 43 defense and be effective.

K Train
01-26-2007, 12:00 PM
Yeah but 4 hamtoms would be hard to block....but a very slow pass rush lol, how about 2 hamptoms, a peppers, and a stahan lol

BlitzburghRockCity
01-26-2007, 12:03 PM
That would work too, basically just more beef with some speed to boot like a Peppers type player would work quite well for obvious reasons.

Casey has good speed and would stuff the run in a big way so it would make a good combination.

K Train
01-26-2007, 12:06 PM
the more i think about it though....4 hamptom type guys....geesh, 4 huge men like that would be crazy.....if our one hamptom takes up 3 offensive lineman....how could you block 4 of them lol

58Lambert
01-26-2007, 12:18 PM
... how about 4 calling birds, 3 french hens, 2 turtle doves and a partri.... nevermind :rofl:

BR7
01-26-2007, 12:25 PM
Ok well, i think that athletes are miles ahead of where they were in the 70s and when you have the right personel (like we do) the more athletic linebackers and corners make for a more effective defensive scheme.

We have those?? lol.

It's like everything else. When it works right, it's a thing of beauty. When it doesn't.. everyone wants a change.

34 > 43

K Train
01-26-2007, 12:28 PM
We have those?? lol.


lol yes we really do....give them time, last year was a mess, but they are good lol

SteelerDan43
01-26-2007, 12:54 PM
Well right now our LB's are to old and to slow to get the QB lol

BR7
01-26-2007, 01:21 PM
lol yes we really do....give them time, last year was a mess, but they are good lol

Yeah, I suppose anything is better than the Scott/Washington Dynamic Duo.

Steelerlyn
01-26-2007, 01:32 PM
Switching from the 3-4 to the 4-3, is not something I'm worried about. Right now, the talent in our defense lies in the DL, not the LBs. I would be very intrigued to see what the Steelers could do in a 4-3 with their current personnel. Can you imagine Hoke & Hampton inside and Keisel & Smith on the outside? How many times have we seen these guys run down the ball carrier? All four can move and they are big and strong. There's not a guard in this league that can handle Hampton one-on-one. Tell me that won't generate more of a pass rush than we've seen this year?

:bigthumb: :tt02: :bigthumb: :tt02: :bigthumb: :tt02: :bigthumb:

SteelersfaninPhilly
01-26-2007, 01:33 PM
This team has the talent to come out of the AFC next year as the super bowl rep. Anybody who wants to screw around and go full blown 4-3 your out of your mind. The steelers never overspend in free agency. Your looking probably 2-4 years before you see any real effect from a true 4-3 front.


That being said you will see more 4-3 looks mixed in with the 3-4 this season.

BR7
01-26-2007, 01:48 PM
When LeBeau goes.. then you'll see a switch. Almost guarantee that.

58Lambert
01-26-2007, 02:06 PM
Maybe, but I think the only way Tomlin would go 43 is if the 34 doesn't perform up to expectations. I hope he wouldn't change just for the sake of changing.

Black@Gold Forever32
01-26-2007, 02:10 PM
Well the Steelers need some pass rushing DE for them to run the 4-3. The only one on the roster right now that could be pass rushing DE in a 4-3 is Brett Keisel. All the other Steeler DE would be DT in a 4-3.

So I don't see the Steelers switching to a 4-3 this year. I would expect to see both in some type of hybrid defense.

BlackGold4vr
01-26-2007, 02:45 PM
I am not afraid of change! Do you know what happens to those who are afraid to get on the train of progress? They get left behind! 4-3, 3-4 yada yada yada. We have quality players with great character and as long as we continue to draft the same types of players, I don't think it matters what scheme you use! Don't know how they do it but the Steelers always seem to draft talented players with great character and unselfishness who buy into doing whats right for the team and not themselves. Thats why we win, thats why the Patriots win. Let the other teams fight over the prima donna players who are more worried about their payday and their stats than winning. Would any of you Steeler faithful consider even for a second trading Hines Ward for any other wide receiver in the league? HW epitomizes what Steeler football is all about! Hard working, unselfish, total team player! I am rambling. My point is that schemes are nothing without quality players and we have a bunch of them! They will play whatever scheme they are asked to and they will be good at it! I have no doubts!

BlitzburghRockCity
01-26-2007, 02:53 PM
The only problem is that yes Hoke & smith can run down the Rb's pretty good but they won't get consistent pressure via a push towards the QB in a 4-3 because they are smaller. 2 Casey hamptons a Brett Keisel and a Peppers type player, or even 4 casey hamptons like Train and I were talking about would be the primse scenario. Look at the Jags with their best front 4. Huge, strong, powerful guys that clog the running lanes and get a good push up the middle while the LB's are there to clean up after them and stop anybody that gets through.

I just really think our DL personnel with the exception of Hampton and maybe Keisel are too small to be consistently effective in a 43. Aaron smith is a GREAT 34 DL, he does what he is asked to do and that's mainly clog the lines and passing lanes and force the RB to go outside or where we want them.

BlitzburghRockCity
01-26-2007, 02:55 PM
I am not afraid of change! Do you know what happens to those who are afraid to get on the train of progress? They get left behind! 4-3, 3-4 yada yada yada. We have quality players with great character and as long as we continue to draft the same types of players, I don't think it matters what scheme you use! Don't know how they do it but the Steelers always seem to draft talented players with great character and unselfishness who buy into doing whats right for the team and not themselves. Thats why we win, thats why the Patriots win. Let the other teams fight over the prima donna players who are more worried about their payday and their stats than winning. Would any of you Steeler faithful consider even for a second trading Hines Ward for any other wide receiver in the league? HW epitomizes what Steeler football is all about! Hard working, unselfish, total team player! I am rambling. My point is that schemes are nothing without quality players and we have a bunch of them! They will play whatever scheme they are asked to and they will be good at it! I have no doubts!


I agree that we always draft players of high character and team oriented attitudes but when it comes to switching a defensive scheme it most definitely matters who you draft in terms of size, speed, talent, and who will fit best in your system. For example, you're not going to see a team like the Jags for example who run a 43 the way they do drafting an Aaron Smith because his talents and abilities are not suited for that scheme. Smith is awesome for us and has been for a long time but he's not a 43 DL player.

BlackGold4vr
01-26-2007, 03:48 PM
I respectfully disagree with your assessment of our current players. Lots of teams have smaller defensive ends who are speed rushers. Aaron Smith, 6 ' 5 and 298 lbs and I have seen him run down backs running away from him from behind. Are you trying to tell me he is too small or too slow to play in a 4-3? I think he is both big enough and fast enough. Brett Kiesel, 6 ' 5 and 285 lbs. Also very fast and a good pass rusher. Casy Hampton and Chris Hoke up the middle. Hampton only weighs 20 lbs more than Hoke. They are both very stout and could definitely occupy some blockers. These players could easily play in a 4-3. My bet is that every one of them played in a 4-3 defense in college. The only support that I would lend to your argument is that we would need to draft some more big bodies to add depth at the positions. We do have another DL in Rodney Bailey from Ohio State (6 ' 3 , 305 lbs). In the 3-4 the jobs of the 3 down lineman was to occupy blockers to give our LB's or FS running lanes to the QB. You couldn't know what kind of a pass rush these guys could generate together because they have never been asked to. This years draft is particularly thin at linebacker and abundant with DL & DE players. All the players talked about above, none have more than 6 years in the league so these guys are in their primes! We are an Adam Carriker or an Amobi Okoye away from having the personnel to play a 4-3. Or a Charles Johnson or Quentin Moses (2 smaller DE's).

:nono:

TEEMONT
01-26-2007, 03:56 PM
I respectfully disagree with your assessment of our current players. Lots of teams have smaller defensive ends who are speed rushers. Aaron Smith, 6 ' 5 and 298 lbs and I have seen him run down backs running away from him from behind. Are you trying to tell me he is too small or too slow to play in a 4-3? I think he is both big enough and fast enough. Brett Kiesel, 6 ' 5 and 285 lbs. Also very fast and a good pass rusher. Casy Hampton and Chris Hoke up the middle. Hampton only weighs 20 lbs more than Hoke. They are both very stout and could definitely occupy some blockers. These players could easily play in a 4-3. My bet is that every one of them played in a 4-3 defense in college. The only support that I would lend to your argument is that we would need to draft some more big bodies to add depth at the positions. We do have another DL in Rodney Bailey from Ohio State (6 ' 3 , 305 lbs). In the 3-4 the jobs of the 3 down lineman was to occupy blockers to give our LB's or FS running lanes to the QB. You couldn't know what kind of a pass rush these guys could generate together because they have never been asked to. This years draft is particularly thin at linebacker and abundant with DL & DE players. All the players talked about above, none have more than 6 years in the league so these guys are in their primes! We are an Adam Carriker or an Amobi Okoye away from having the personnel to play a 4-3. Or a Charles Johnson or Quentin Moses (2 smaller DE's).

:nono:

:iagree: Whoever is saying Smith is too small and Keisel is big enough, needs to re-examine what they are saying.

BlackGold4vr
01-26-2007, 04:15 PM
Jacksonvilles front 4: Pittsburghs potential 4:
John Henderson 6'7 325 Casey Hampton 6'1 325
Paul Spicer 6'4 296 Chris Hoke 6'3 305
Marcus Stroud 6'6 306 Brett Kiesel 6'5 285
Bobby McCray 6'6 261 Aaron Smith 6'5 298

I guess our guys are not as big as theirs? Try again. Perhaps you would like to reference someone elses front 4 and I could stack their players against ours as well. Our players will stack up well in size and speed with any front 4 you can name. By the way those are the Jags starter right off of their own depth charts.

:nono:

Black@Gold Forever32
01-26-2007, 04:35 PM
As I see our current DL. The only one that maybe could play end in a 4-3 is Keisel since his best talents are rushing the passer. I see Aaron Smith as a DT in a 4-3. Hell the ends in a 3-4 play like a DT anyway. I think Smith would be highly effective playing inside next to big Casey in a 4-3.

If the Steelers could get a Dwight Freeney type pass rushing DE for the 4-3 or a Peppers. But players like Peppers are hard to find. Then they could a 4-3 no problem.

BlackGold4vr
01-26-2007, 04:47 PM
The DE for the Colts are built for the pass rush but their size makes them very susceptable to wearing down and being run against late in games.

Dwight Freeney 6'1 268
Robert Mathis 6'2 245

These are the starting DE's for the Colts! Smallish I think!

:dunno:

Black@Gold Forever32
01-26-2007, 05:15 PM
The DE for the Colts are built for the pass rush but their size makes them very susceptable to wearing down and being run against late in games.

Dwight Freeney 6'1 268
Robert Mathis 6'2 245

These are the starting DE's for the Colts! Smallish I think!

:dunno:

I didn't say Freeney and Mathis. Just a Freeney type to pair with Keisel at DE. Then have Aaron Smith and Big Casey at DT.

SteelerSal
01-26-2007, 05:19 PM
Defensive Line
Defensive Tackles
There are two defensive tackles in the 4-3 scheme. The first one is similar to the NT in the 3-4 in the fact that he is a little bigger and stronger and plays the 2 gap technique. As such, he is usually called the NT as well. It is called the two gap technique because he is responsible for two offensive linemen, generally the Center and Guard. His primary job is to stop the run and take up two or more blockers. The second DT is usually referred to simply as a Defensive Tackle, and is a bit smaller and faster, similar to a 3-4 DE. He plays a one gap technique meaning he is responsible for 1 offensive lineman, generally the remaining Guard. His primary responsibility is to rush the passer and stop the run.

Defensive Ends
The defensive end's primary role in the 4-3 defense is to get to the quarterback and create pressure. The 4-3 DE's are the smallest of all of the defensive lineman due to their emphasis of speed over strength. They still need to be strong enough to fight their way past offensive tackles, yet quick enough to pursue the Running backs on runs to the outside. Defensive ends generally play the 1 gap technique, though will occasionally be forced to play a 2 gap in the event of a TE pinching in to block on run plays.


Linebackers
Middle Linebacker
There is only one inside linebacker in the 4-3 scheme, so he is called the Middle linebacker, sometimes known as the Mike linebacker. He acts as the quarterback of the defense and is often the defensive leader. The primary responsibility of the Mike is to stop the run, though he will often be asked to fall back in zone coverage. Because of this the Mike is often the largest and strongest of all of the Linebackers

Outside Linebackers
As in the 3-4 there are two outside linebackers in the 4-3. These outside backers are known as the Strong-Side and Weak-Side Linebackers. The Strong-Side, or Sam linebacker, is so named because he typically sticks to the strong side of the defense, across from the TE. The Sam does his fair share of blitzing, however he also needs to play the run and will usually be relied upon to cover the tight end or potentially a back out of the backfield. The Weak-Side, or Will, will generally play on the weak side and has more freedom than the other LBs, often blitzing the QB or guarding against the screen.

Secondary
The 4-3 defense generally uses four defensive backs. Two of these are safeties, and two of them are corners. A cornerback's responsibilities vary depending on the type of coverage called. Coverage is simply how the defense will be protecting against the pass. The corners will generally line up 3 to 5 yards off the ball, generally trying to "Jam" or interrupt the receivers route within the first 5 yards. A corner will be given one of two ways to defend the pass (with variations that result in more or less the same responsibilities): zone and man-to-man. In zone coverage, the cornerback is responsible for an area on the field. In this case, the corner must always stay downfield of whoever it is covering while still remaining in its zone, always between the sideline and the opposing player. Zone is a more relaxed defensive scheme meant to provide more awareness across the defensive secondary while sacrificing tight coverage. As such, the corner in this case would be responsible for making sure nobody gets outside of him, always, or downfield of him, in cases where there is no deep safety help. In man coverage, however, the cornerback is solely responsible for the man across from him, usually the offensive player split farthest out.

The free safety is responsible for reading the offensive plays and covering deep passes. He is usually very fast to handle the role of a streaking receiver. Depending on the defensive call, he may also provide run support. He is positioned 10 to 15 yards behind the line of scrimmage, toward the center of the field. He provides the last line of defense against running backs and receivers who get past the linebackers and cornerbacks. He must be a quick and smart player, be capable of making tackles efficiently as well as read the play and alert your team of game situations.

The strong safety is usually larger than the free safety and is positioned relatively close to the line of scrimmage. He is often an integral part of the run defense, but is also responsible for defending against a pass; especially against passes to the tight-ends.

The 4-3 is widely used because of its balance in stopping both runs and passes as well as being personnel-friendly since smaller players can be used effectively along the defensive line.


The only change in personnel would be at the D-end position.
Hampton can play the 2 gap and Keisel would be the other D-lineman. We would need speed in the corners of the line that can easily be filled through the draft or free agency.
As for the linebackers we are set there. I hope James Harrison's coverage skills get better so he can win a starters job. Harrison might even play DE with his strength and speed. IMO

TEEMONT
01-26-2007, 05:39 PM
Awesome info Sal, great insight as well.

K Train
01-26-2007, 05:41 PM
**** 4-3 :lol:

BlitzburghRockCity
01-26-2007, 05:44 PM
I respectfully disagree with your assessment of our current players. Lots of teams have smaller defensive ends who are speed rushers. Aaron Smith, 6 ' 5 and 298 lbs and I have seen him run down backs running away from him from behind. Are you trying to tell me he is too small or too slow to play in a 4-3? I think he is both big enough and fast enough. Brett Kiesel, 6 ' 5 and 285 lbs. Also very fast and a good pass rusher. Casy Hampton and Chris Hoke up the middle. Hampton only weighs 20 lbs more than Hoke. They are both very stout and could definitely occupy some blockers. These players could easily play in a 4-3. My bet is that every one of them played in a 4-3 defense in college. The only support that I would lend to your argument is that we would need to draft some more big bodies to add depth at the positions. We do have another DL in Rodney Bailey from Ohio State (6 ' 3 , 305 lbs). In the 3-4 the jobs of the 3 down lineman was to occupy blockers to give our LB's or FS running lanes to the QB. You couldn't know what kind of a pass rush these guys could generate together because they have never been asked to. This years draft is particularly thin at linebacker and abundant with DL & DE players. All the players talked about above, none have more than 6 years in the league so these guys are in their primes! We are an Adam Carriker or an Amobi Okoye away from having the personnel to play a 4-3. Or a Charles Johnson or Quentin Moses (2 smaller DE's).

:nono:


Dude you're not getting what Im saying. The 43 relies on big strong players with possibly a speed rusher who's a bit on the smaller side compared to the rest but still big enough to get the majority of the pressure. Why do you think Tomlin is keeping the 34, because we are built for it and we know how to do it, and we drafted players for it. Anybody who knows football will tell you that certain players are designed for certain positions in certain defenses, that's why there is an art to drafting players that you need.

Why do you think players like Aaron Smith are so successful ,because they a 34 type of DL. I never said Aaron Smith couldnt run down a RB or occupy blockers; he does that now and does it well but we need players more on the BIG side to not only occupy blockers and pass rush and get pressure consistently right up the middle and on the ends, Im saying that our current crop of DL are not the right fit for a 43 defensive line exclusively because you need 330-350 lb guys up front not 300 lb guys. Aaron is a great player and one of my favorite guys on the team because he's all heart and motor but if you're talking about 43 type of DL and we ran a 43 type of defense from the get to, 10-1 odds Aaron smith is never drafted by us in the first place.

The Colts are a prime example, they are for the most part a small DL team and they got slaughtered and gashed by the run and played poor defense basically all year so you just made my arguement for me. :cool: That explanation given above by Sal shows you how the traditional 43 is usually run but if you look around at the really successful 43 defenses in the league they have a ton of beef up front with a big time pass rusher to help get pressure from the edges. Aaron smith is not the type of player that a Julius Peppers is. They are both exceptional NFL players at their positions because they are in a defense that suits them.

BlackGold4vr
01-26-2007, 07:20 PM
TopGun........name me just one D-line where all 4 guys are between 330-350. I already compared the Jaguars D-line with one that we could field. Ours would be bigger with existing players. But I can't think of any D-line in the league like the one you describe that we need. I wonder if Aaron Smith and Brett Kiesel know that they can't rush the passer. Can you imagine a center and 2 guards lined up across from Hampton (325) and Hoke (305) knowing they won't get any help from the tackles because they have to stop Smith and Kiesel? Jacksonvilles front 4 were as stout as they come and the combined weights of these players does not match the combined weight of ours! The combined weights of the Carolina Panthers front 4 only outweighs the 4 I mentioned for us by 30 lbs. The only D-line I can think of that ever had the beef you are talking about were the 2001 Ravens with Sam Adams and Tony Siragusa both of which were FAT. My point is that these guys are already great run stoppers and if each one wasn't getting a doubleteam on passing plays they could prove to be decent pass rushers as well. The only valid reason in my opinion why we are not currently equipped to run a 4-3 is we don't have depth in case of injuries. That could be fixed in the upcoming draft. I also want to say I don't care which defense they run as long as they are good at it. I just don't agree with those of you who have predetermined that our current personnel could not play outside the box you have put them in!

:towel:

SteelerSal
01-26-2007, 07:26 PM
I also want to say I don't care which defense they run as long as they are good at it. I just don't agree with those of you who have predetermined that our current personnel could not play outside the box you have put them in!

:towel:


I'm with ya BG4vr.:bigthumb:

Black@Gold Forever32
01-26-2007, 07:36 PM
I must be missing something the only current pass rushing DE on the roster that can play end in a 4-3 is Keisel.

All the other DE would be better suited at DT in a 4-3. That includes Aaron Smith. The guy is a great DE in the 3-4 but I think his skills would be better at DT in a 4-3.

Now there is the chance of Porter and Haggans playing DE at times since they were converted DE.

DIESELMAN
01-26-2007, 07:41 PM
Good points guys.......I think the biggest fear people have changing from a 3-3 to a 4-3 is change. We are so used to seeing us play a 3-4 the thought of switching to a 4-3 is scary. I've had the privilege to see the 4-3 Steel Curtain in action and like wise have enjoyed watching us play the 3-4 the past few years. I don't lean one way or another, we have been known as a smashmouth defense for years no matter if its 3-4 or 4-3. We are not that far away from being a 4-3, BlackGold4vr made a lot of good points and comparisons to the Jags and we basically are damn near there. We can acquire most of what we need via the draft and FA, but mostly the draft. The biggest mistake teams make converting over from a 3-4 to a 4-3 or vice versa is to not look at what they got and immediately scrap the whole defensive roster to convert. Ala Cleveland Browns they are in their 3rd or 4th year converting over and are nowhere near where they need to be. We've got the speed and strength on the outside and the bulk up the middle and if some players need to bulk up for the outside thats easier then saying he won't fit a 4-3 w/o trying first. Between LeBeau and Tomlin it won't matter what we run we will always have the defense that other teams model after.

SteelerSal
01-26-2007, 07:41 PM
I must be missing something the only current pass rushing DE on the roster that can play end in a 4-3 is Keisel.

All the other DE would be better suited at DT in a 4-3. That includes Aaron Smith. The guy is a great DE in the 3-4 but I think his skills would be better at DT in a 4-3.

Now there is the chance of Porter and Haggans playing DE at times since they were converted DE.


I would like to know if James Harrison is capable of makin the switch. We've all seen his speed and strength.http://www.sitharchives.com/board/harrison2.gif

Black@Gold Forever32
01-26-2007, 07:44 PM
I would like to know if James Harrison is capable of makin the switch. We've all seen his speed and strength.http://www.sitharchives.com/board/harrison2.gif

Well James Harrison needs more playing time period at OLB or DE. I don't care we need the guy on the field.

BlitzburghRockCity
01-26-2007, 07:44 PM
TopGun........name me just one D-line where all 4 guys are between 330-350. I already compared the Jaguars D-line with one that we could field. Ours would be bigger with existing players. But I can't think of any D-line in the league like the one you describe that we need. I wonder if Aaron Smith and Brett Kiesel know that they can't rush the passer. Can you imagine a center and 2 guards lined up across from Hampton (325) and Hoke (305) knowing they won't get any help from the tackles because they have to stop Smith and Kiesel? Jacksonvilles front 4 were as stout as they come and the combined weights of these players does not match the combined weight of ours! The combined weights of the Carolina Panthers front 4 only outweighs the 4 I mentioned for us by 30 lbs. The only D-line I can think of that ever had the beef you are talking about were the 2001 Ravens with Sam Adams and Tony Siragusa both of which were FAT. My point is that these guys are already great run stoppers and if each one wasn't getting a doubleteam on passing plays they could prove to be decent pass rushers as well. The only valid reason in my opinion why we are not currently equipped to run a 4-3 is we don't have depth in case of injuries. That could be fixed in the upcoming draft. I also want to say I don't care which defense they run as long as they are good at it. I just don't agree with those of you who have predetermined that our current personnel could not play outside the box you have put them in!

:towel:


If Smith and Kiesel can rush the passer then why aren't they getting the pressure and sacks? Sure our 34 allows the LB's to get most of the pressure but Im sure Lebeau doesn't say, "ok Aaron and Brett, don't sack the QB if yo u you get a chance too" .

Doesn't matter if the Ratbird DL was fat or not, they were one of the best ever and it wasn't because of Gay Ray Lewis only it was because they got pressure from the DL and the entire defense was great.

If they weren't getting double teamed is no excuse. If you can rush the passer you can rush the passer. Most DL in the league could rush the passer if they weren't getting double teamed. The whole point of this debate is that you think we could run the 43 as we are now, I say we cannot. Tomlin must think we can't either otherwise he'd have canned Lebeau and decided to institute the 43 this year. He stated that he wants to employ a defense that uses the strength of our players. At this point in time that strength is the 34. If he decides to change he will do so over time with drafting more players that are IMO better suited for that defense. Look at our scheme and how many players that leave the Steelers that actually do well...not very many. We draft players that fit our 34 scheme which is a big reason for their success.

Black@Gold Forever32
01-26-2007, 07:47 PM
Now if the Steelers draft players like Adam Carriker the DE out of Nebraska and Anthony Spencer out of Purdue then they could make this hybrid defense really work.

Spencer can play DE/OLB. Carriker would be 3-4DE/DT

BlitzburghRockCity
01-26-2007, 07:49 PM
I'd like to see a hybrid defense, the more I think about it the more it would be a wild idea that would keep them guessing even more than they do now with the zone blitz.

With defensive minds like Tomlin and Lebeau anything is possible.

SteelerSal
01-26-2007, 07:49 PM
If Smith and Kiesel can rush the passer then why aren't they getting the pressure and sacks? Sure our 34 allows the LB's to get most of the pressure but Im sure Lebeau doesn't say, "ok Aaron and Brett, don't sack the QB if yo u you get a chance too" .



Our style of defense requires our ends to spread the O-line to open up alleys for our linebackers and safeties to get to the QB. This is why our DE's don't get the sacks that we want to see.

BlitzburghRockCity
01-26-2007, 07:54 PM
Our style of defense also requires them to crash the line to force the RB to run outside where the LB's can get them. The main issue here is that our DL suit our scheme perfectly, I love having each one of them on our team, but to ask them to switch to a defense that requires them to be something that are not and/or haven't been since they joined the team is not a good strategy to employ. They get an occasional sack here and there and they do their job perfectly just like we ask them too because that's the way it's designed to allow them to flourish in our particular system.

BlackGold4vr
01-26-2007, 07:56 PM
We currently have 5 DE on the team: A. Smith; S. Nua; T. Kirschke; B. Kiesel; R. Bailey These guys are all very big!

We currently have 2 NT on the team: C. Hampton; C. Hoke Again both of these guys are very big!

All that we lack is a smaller speed rusher. The DPOY Jason Taylor is listed at 6'6 255 lbs. Sounds like Joey Porters size. There are also lots of these type of guys available in this years draft. A switch would not be as hard as you think! Again I don't care which defense we run as long as we are good at it. I am just trying to make the point that it would not take years to convert.

:tt02:

Black@Gold Forever32
01-26-2007, 08:02 PM
Of all those DE though the only one that can play DE in a 4-3 is Keisel.

BlitzburghRockCity
01-26-2007, 08:07 PM
We currently have 5 DE on the team: A. Smith; S. Nua; T. Kirschke; B. Kiesel; R. Bailey These guys are all very big!

We currently have 2 NT on the team: C. Hampton; C. Hoke Again both of these guys are very big!

Kirschke is a backup for a reason, so is Nua, and so is Bailey. Hoke is a solid backup but he's no Casey Hampton.

You can't convert DT's to DE's and expect them to just pick it up like that, its a whole different ball game with those 2 positions. If switching defensive schemes entirely is as easy as you are posting about then why do teams struggle with a defensive transition every time it happens ? Because the scheme is hard to learn and takes time to develop and get everyone on the same page, and because they were drafted and built for 1 scheme and then switched to another. Expecting us to switch to a 43 and be successful in 2007 before its too late for the playoffs is not realistic or we'd be doing it this year.

Maybe we get a hybrid scheme in 2007, maybe we're just a 34 team like we always were, its anybody's guess until camp starts this summer but regardless coaches don't make wholesale changes to a team unless they plan on rebuilding.

BlackGold4vr
01-26-2007, 08:15 PM
The DE of the Jags had 13 sacks this year.
B. McCray had 10
P Spicer had 3
M Stroud DT had 2.5
J Henderson DT had 3.5

Aaron Smith had 4.5 sacks this year
Brett Kiesel has 5.5 sacks this year
Imagine how many more sacks these guys could get on all those plays where we dropped our LB's into coverage and only rushed 3.

I use the Jags as a reference because not only were they the 2nd ranked defense in the league (7 spots better than us) But TopGun used them as his reference.

:banging:

BlitzburghRockCity
01-26-2007, 08:18 PM
If we only rush 3, there's no way we're getting any sacks. That's what you do in a prevent and last time I check the prevent doesn't generate alot of sacks.

Our LB's get alot of pressure which allows our DL guys to shed some blocks and get some sacks. If you don't rush our LB's our DL will get eaten alive.

Stop getting all worked up dude, Im having fun

Black@Gold Forever32
01-26-2007, 08:18 PM
The Jags lost their best pass rushing DE for the year like in the first or second game of the season.

BlackGold4vr
01-26-2007, 08:24 PM
Ravens had the #1 defense and they ran both. It's not rocket science! Whatever defense we run I think will be better than last years! Our offense kept our defense on the field too much last year and this year I expect the offense to be more in sync!

:deadhorse:

BlackGold4vr
01-26-2007, 08:30 PM
I am not worked up! This is friendly debate between people who love the same team and want just as badly for that team to succeed in the future. And if we never agree on the abilities of our current players its alright.

:imhere:

BlitzburghRockCity
01-26-2007, 08:33 PM
I agree, they had the best defense and they ran both because they had the talent to do it and coaches to implement and teach it. We also have the capability to run both and the coaches to teach it so we can run both any given time to help confuse the offense even more. Mixing up the 43 and 34 is what we've done for years but we rely on the 34 as our base main defense.

We should be better than last year because we sucked for a variety of reasons for 2/3 of the year but overall with 2 defensive minds on staff like we have now we should be awesome.

BlitzburghRockCity
01-26-2007, 08:35 PM
I am not worked up! This is friendly debate between people who love the same team and want just as badly for that team to succeed in the future. And if we never agree on the abilities of our current players its alright.

:imhere:


See that's the spirit, since you're new around here it takes a bit to figure out your posting style and what you're mindset is till we chat for a bit; that helps to get to know someone on a board like this :redcool: I respect your knowledge and you're point of view. We can agree to disagree on everything under the sun as long as we agree that the Steelers rock the earth !

House of Steel
01-26-2007, 08:40 PM
This is becoming a very intresting debate, but I have to ask something here? Do you really believe the strength of the Steelers Defense is converting to a 4-3. I sure the hell don't, the reason being in this, we have a secondary that is very unpredictable at times. We've seen this last year how many times have we seen the corners line up 5 to 10 yards for a cushion for a WR? That used to irritate the hell out of me. That is stupidity. Also, in a 4-3 sequence, you will not force much pressure on the line or in our case, we won't be able to rush the QB with much chance for a sack as in a 3-4. Now then, we come to a part where we could very well be a hybird defense, now that is a terrific scenario. I wouldn't mind mixing the 3-4, 4-3, 5-2, 4-4, and so on. WE AREN'T BUILD FOR A COVER 2 nor a prevent defense, cause that was proven so many times to fail on us. What I see happening this season on the defensive side of the ball, is simple. LeBeau and Tomlin are going to put their minds together and develop a new strategy to really throw off the offense. Troy Polamalu and Ryan Clark (I would perfer Anthony Smith to start opposite) can be used as they always have as blitzing lineman. How many times have Polamalu been successful running full blast at the QB. Troy needs to work with Ryan and Anthony to develop into what Troy is today. I am pretty sure LeBeau will work with the safeties on this. We have one of the best personnels on defense in all of the NFL. This defense on the 3-4 scheme is a few pieces away from being close to being the 2001 Ravens. KEEP BLITZBURGH INTACT.

BlackGold4vr
01-26-2007, 09:03 PM
I am a researching fool when it comes to posting. If I am unsure of my facts I will research before or while I post. I also believe that statistics do not lie! You might not like what the stats are saying but they do not lie! I like to read posts from others who back up what they say with stats and facts baby! Posters who make irrational statements that cannot be backed up with stats and facts lose credibility in my world. High speed internet is awesome, I can check stats, rosters, players weights & heights, and teams depth charts all in seconds on a different tab while in the middle of a post! You can't BS old timers like me who have a memory for football knowledge and are internet savy. I don't shy away from debate. If I disagree I will do my research and back my opinion with stats and facts to support my position. All in fun of course. Don't come here to get hostility from anyone. Love the Steelers and in my opinion the only thing better than talking about Steeler football is watching Steeler football!

:bigthumb:

House of Steel
01-26-2007, 09:04 PM
You can't say that any better. :bigthumb:

Black@Gold Forever32
01-26-2007, 09:19 PM
Oh you make alot of good points BlackGold4vr.

BlitzburghRockCity
01-26-2007, 09:24 PM
Stats do not lie "for the most part". Stats are skewed based on a variety of factors on any given team, player, circumstance, or season. For example, the Jags stats could have been higher had they not had injuries. Our stats would have been better had we not played with a secondary that couldn't cover an 80 yr old grandmother.

Stats say that we sucked as a team last year based on our win/loss record, our pass defense, QB ratings, etc. BUT we all know this team is better than that and that our stats were vastly affected by Ben's poor play for all the reasons we already know. Stats say that our ST sucked last year but this is the same unit as 2005 minus ARE. Stats say that we didn't do well in many categories that I could also look up but there is no need too because the point is that our team was nearly unchanged from 2005 when we won the SB, yet circumstances a plenty contributed to the facts that state we had a bad year or that we are a bad team.

The point is that stats are stats, but they don't allow for the intangibles that affect them.. and THAT is a FACT ! ;)

BlackGold4vr
01-26-2007, 09:50 PM
Cowher was completely detached from this team all year. I have said before the only game where I saw the old "JAW" was the last game against the Bengals. Football is a game played with emotion. Coaches will all tell you that your team is probably never as bad as you think they are or never as good as they think they are. All teams have to play with distractions, diversity and injuries. We were an 8 -8 team this year! Can't blame everything on Big Ben. Why did our offensive line forget how to run block on the road? Why did we get manhandled by the elite teams we played? San Diego and Baltimore both set the bar for where we need to go to compete at the top. We were not close to competing with either of those teams! That was our team 2 years ago during our 15-1 season. We dominated teams! We rolled over Philadelphia and New England the 2 superbowl teams from the year before like Baltimore did to us this year. Stats always tell the story one way or another. Turnovers, we ranked as the fourth worst! Only Oakland, Detroit and Cleveland were worse than us! Does that stat support a 8-8 season?

DIESELMAN
01-26-2007, 09:57 PM
We were definitely due a change in HC. 15 years IMHO is to long to coach one team and keep the same intensity, fire and drive going year in and year out. The players play is a reflection of the coaching staff to some degree, so if the coach doesn't want it anymore then the playes will sense that. Not that any of our guys gave up but they damn sure didn't play up to expectations from the previous couple of years.

SteelerSal
01-26-2007, 10:02 PM
We were definitely due a change in HC. 15 years IMHO is to long to coach one team and keep the same intensity, fire and drive going year in and year out. The players play is a reflection of the coaching staff to some degree, so if the coach doesn't want it anymore then the playes will sense that. Not that any of our guys gave up but they damn sure didn't play up to expectations from the previous couple of years.

Fresh off of a Superbowl win and lack of focus and fundamentals was our downfall this past season and it starts with the coaches keeping it all together. The whole team from the coaches to the waterboy was guilty of this. HC change was due and I'm not bashing Cowher, it was just time to light a new fire.

BlitzburghRockCity
01-26-2007, 10:02 PM
Cowher was completely detached from this team all year. I have said before the only game where I saw the old "JAW" was the last game against the Bengals. Football is a game played with emotion. Coaches will all tell you that your team is probably never as bad as you think they are or never as good as they think they are. All teams have to play with distractions, diversity and injuries. We were an 8 -8 team this year! Can't blame everything on Big Ben. Why did our offensive line forget how to run block on the road? Why did we get manhandled by the elite teams we played? San Diego and Baltimore both set the bar for where we need to go to compete at the top. We were not close to competing with either of those teams! That was our team 2 years ago during our 15-1 season. We dominated teams! We rolled over Philadelphia and New England the 2 superbowl teams from the year before like Baltimore did to us this year. Stats always tell the story one way or another. Turnovers, we ranked as the fourth worst! Only Oakland, Detroit and Cleveland were worse than us! Does that stat support a 8-8 season?

Everything you just said support what I stated in my last posts. You're a stat guy, you look them up back up all your thoughts with stats, etc. That's what you said but according to this post of yours you just validated what I stated previously. Stats only tell the story according to the numbers but the intangibles, the variables, everything that goes into a game, skews those stats and makes your team seem better or worse than it really is many times.

There's far too many things involved in an NFL game besides the numbers that stats can only portray. Of course Big Ben didn't lose every game for us last year, anybody will tell you that, but he sure didn't help matters any. There's no logical explanation as to why our team stunk up the joint last year other than to say they just didn't play well for reasons such as injuries, head coaching change possibility, super bowl hangover, offseason problems, players not playing up to their ability, etc. The reasons are many but it validates my point that stats don't tell the entire story, just like with the whole 43 vs 34 issue.

SteelerNation
01-26-2007, 10:08 PM
I think we could go 50/50 use some plays from 3-4 defence and swice it up a little and got 4-3 but i think we need to keep our main defence the same and thats a 3-4 thats just my 2cents

DIESELMAN
01-26-2007, 10:16 PM
Well one way to see where we are going is to watch the draft and see what Tomlin goes after for our defense.

BlitzburghRockCity
01-26-2007, 10:18 PM
Im anxious to see how Tomlin's draft strategy will work with Colbert and how his picks pan out as our coach in his first year. By the time day 2 is over we'll have a pretty good idea of what his thoughts are for our team and what he feels we need to improve on or add depth to.

BlackGold4vr
01-26-2007, 10:30 PM
I think that being the 4th worst team in giving the ball away is a very telling stat! The same stat also speaks to how talented our team is because if it wasn't talented we would have been a 4-12 team. Just look at our company on that list Oakland, Cleveland and Detroit. We were good enough to give the ball away 37 times and still win 8 times. We easily could have won the first Cincy game, the Oakland game and the Atlanta game. I believe an 11-5 record would have not only gotten us into the playoffs but it would have gotten us a home game on wildcard weekend! As far as stats telling the story............they do tell a story. You can look at the top 5 teams and the bottom 5 and quickly find stats that tell you why those teams finished in those positions! Is that a true statement? That proves my point!

:nahnah:

BlitzburghRockCity
01-26-2007, 10:42 PM
It doesn't prove your point anymore than the previous stat posts you made did because you harped on how important stats are in why we could be a good 43 team, then you sit here and say that stats say that we are still a good team giving the ball away 37 times. You're stats are a matter of how you look at them. I choose to look at them different than you. It's all in the interpretation so you can't sit here and tell me that your stats tell the story that is correct. You just proved that by the first 2 lines in your last post. Stats that show a poor outcome can also be indicative to a postive spin as well.

So enough with the stats already because you're not convincing me that your stats do anything other than leave everything open to interpretation so :nahnah: right back at ya.

BlackGold4vr
01-26-2007, 10:56 PM
So the leading rusher was really the worst. The top rated passer was really the most inaccurate. The best defense really gave up the most yards and points? Stats don't tell us anything do they? Of course they don't tell us the "whole story" but they are like bits of forensic evidense that when you put them all together they paint an accurate picture. Back atcha!

:nahnah:

Steelersfan
01-26-2007, 11:09 PM
Of course stats tell a story. Teams that win are going to have good stats in certain areas. But looking at stats alone won't tell you who won the game.
Texans? Raiders? ring a bell?....lol Damn I hate those two games!
Anyways, I wouldn't always says stats paint an accurate picture. The odds are in your favor but they don't always paint the correct picture.

BlitzburghRockCity
01-26-2007, 11:13 PM
See now you're contradicting yourself. 2 posts ago you did it, now you're doing it again. Make up your mind which side of the stat fence you want to be on please so I can debate you properly. :lol:

Stats tell alot about a team and they are important... but as you pointed out they don't tell the WHOLE story which is what Ive been trying to say all along. Stats tell you the numbers and facts about whatever topic you want but they are interpreted differently based on the circumstances. There are very few absolutes in this world, and stats are not one of them.

Just to validate my case 1 more time. You said we were an 8-8 team this year, and we were. You also said that we could easily be 11-5 and in the playoffs which I also agree with..BUT the stats say that we were 8-8, therefore the intangibles being that we could have been 11-5 had this or that happened or not happened. So again it's valid to say based on what you said that even though the stats say we were 8-8 the circumstances that caused us to lose games against the bengals, raiders, falcons, etc. were not indicative of what our team truely is, according to the stats, from our point of view.

DIESELMAN
01-26-2007, 11:23 PM
I think stats as a whole team are over rated BUT individual stats is where you get the real pic.

BlackGold4vr
01-26-2007, 11:52 PM
In every game that I have ever watched there is at the very least a single stat line that supports the outcome of the game. Thats why the play by play guys and color analyst always put those stat lines up there at halftime. Usually they can circle one of them that tells the story of why the score is what it is. Same thing at the end of the game. There is always a telling stat line that tells the story of why the outcome is what it is. Pick a game and I will go pull up the gamestats and highlight the critical ones for you that support the game outcome. The Raider game this year and the Texans game a couple years ago where we held both teams to around 100 total yards. The 2 Int's returned for touchdowns were certainly the deciding stat. If you didn't see the game and looked at the stats that is the one that tells the story! If stats meant nothing we wouldn't keep them. They are indicators of what happened!


Pittsburgh Steelers vs Oakland Raiders
10/29/2006 at McAfee Coliseum
Final Team Statistics

Pitt Oak
TOTAL NET YARDS 360 98

INTERCEPTIONS NO YDS AVG LG TD
C.Carr 1 100 100.0 100 1
N.Asomugha 1 24 24.0 24 1

BlitzburghRockCity
01-27-2007, 06:43 AM
Dude you still are not getting it are you ? Im glad I went to bed and didn't see this last post by you or I'd have to still be up trying to tell you that NOBODY ever said that stats don't mean anything yet you keep harping on that fact until you decide to go in a different stat direction in your next post.

Look man, it all comes down again to the fact that stats are important and the only stat that really matters is the one that tells the score at the end of the game. You've heard it said and Im sure you've said it too that if you look at this game on paper and didn't see the actual game that it "wasn't as close as the score indicated" or a stat that shows a QB throwing 3 interceptions that were returned for TD's but it doesnt take into account that what if all 3 were tipped balls off the WR's hands or what if he catches it and it pops right out and into the hands of a defender; both of which are recorded STATS as interceptions but they were hardly the QB's fault. Me asking you to go find any game so you can pull the game stats is pointless because I can do the same thing, so can anybody else with a sports book or an internet connection. The long and short of it is you think stats are the main story and I think they are only part of it. You think you're right and I think Im right so like we tried to do 3 pages ago in this thread let's just agree to disagree because you're not going to convince me that you are correct and vice versa.

:cool:

BlackGold4vr
01-27-2007, 11:00 AM
Why do you think players like Aaron Smith are so successful ,because they a 34 type of DL. I never said Aaron Smith couldnt run down a RB or occupy blockers; he does that now and does it well but we need players more on the BIG side to not only occupy blockers and pass rush and get pressure consistently right up the middle and on the ends, Im saying that our current crop of DL are not the right fit for a 43 defensive line exclusively because you need 330-350 lb guys up front not 300 lb guys. Aaron is a great player and one of my favorite guys on the team because he's all heart and motor but if you're talking about 43 type of DL and we ran a 43 type of defense from the get to, 10-1 odds Aaron smith is never drafted by us in the first place.


43 defensive lineman are BIG guys. In otherwords we would really need 4 Casey hamptons to run it effectively. Aaron Smith, Hoke, are too small. Keisel is borderline but could work. We'd need to draft all new DL and change our LB's too.

These are your quotes TopGun, yet you failed miserably to name just one current 4-3 D-line that supports your outrageous statements here! Let me tell our viewers why you couldn't support these statements! Not true! The best 4-3 D-lines in the league all have small speed rushers on the ends with big hogs like you describe up the middle. Of course you won't concede that you are wrong because your pride won't let that happen. This is what I meant about backing up a statement with proof positive. Please post about the monster 4-3 D-line that contains 4 guys who are 330-350. I am dying to see that post! In fact I am laughing hysterically at the predicament you are in to validate your statement!

Let me help you here by giving you some height & weight stats of some of the premier pass rushers in the league who play in 4-3 defenses:
Julius Peppers; 6'7 283 (nowhere near 330)
Jason Taylor; 6'6 255 (wow, thats small)
Michael Strahan; 6'5 255 (future HOF)

Yet according to you we need 4 Casey Hamptons! :willybs:

I guess its good for these guys that their coaches saw some potential in them to be good D-lineman despite the fact that they were never 330-350 monsters! I didn't claim that our current D-lineman would all be perfect. What I did say to contradict your outrageous claims above is that the guys we have are plenty big enough. Whether they have the non-stop motors and could consistently get to the QB is another question. Don't act like a self appointed expert because my friend you are not! All that you said was opinion and none of it was supported with anything.

:tt02:

BlackGold4vr
01-27-2007, 11:12 AM
Bruce Smith was only 6'4 265 and Reggie White was 6'5 300. By your own accounts both would be too small to play in a 4-3 defense. Gotta be 330-350
What a ridiculous statement!

:nahnah:

TEEMONT
01-27-2007, 11:17 AM
Phew, this is getting good! I do agree with TG though, IMO the only stat that matters is 8-8. Now as much as I hate tyo cut and run, its time to go drink beer all day.

Although I will say I do disagree with TG on that fact that our lineman aren't big enough to play a 4-3, I think BlacknGold4vr has debunked that myth. We "could" run a 4-3 if Tomlin wanted to, I doubt he will go primarily to a 4-3 but I think we will see some variations this year. Throw in some cover 2 with all of that, and what do you have, the NFL's most unpredictable DEFENSE!.

BlitzburghRockCity
01-27-2007, 12:47 PM
Here you go again flip flopping back and forth between topics, make up your mind please. I highly suggest you watch yourself in calling me out here claiming that what I state is outrageous and that I can't back up my claims and opinions because I most certainly can however I choose not to go through all the research and find current or previous teams that support my theory, in this particular case, because it's not needed because you won't listen anyways, you've proved that and contradicted yourself several times in thread alone and proved many of my points for me if you'd just go back and read this thread again, Mr. High and Mighty ! If you really want to get into a stat war I can blow you out of the water but Im taking the high road here because your attitude is starting to suck in the last couple posts and Im not stooping to your level. Don't bring that tone around here and expect anybody in authority to stand for it. State your claim and your thoughts but don't go calling anybody out whether they are a staff member or regular member ! Respect other people's opinions and debate in a positive manner like you were before because as soon as you start getting all torqued up, and don't tell me you're not please. I choose to address the part of your post that I figured you'd be least likely to start getting fired up and continue to debate in a civil manner but I guess I was wrong.

As for your claims that all of guys could be good 43 defensive players I guess you know better than Mike Tomlin or many other coaches in the league that choose to draft players to fit the system they want instead of plugging them in just because you think they will work. Just because Peppers and the like are not 330 lb monsters and are good you forgot to take into effect that they have alot help from the other DL and LB on the team taking some of the heat off them. I stand by my claim that we would need BIG monsters to be effective that in the past that has been the case and for what it's worth I'd hardly call the Carolina defense, or the Giants defense anything spectacular to begin with. You're sitting here telling me how great these players are, and they are good, but you don't take into account the rest of the defense that sux ! A player like Freeney, Taylor, and the like may get good stats but they have no good supporting cast so therefore your claim of a great DL can be smaller makes zero sense because the rest of the team sux. Players like Taylor, Freeney and the like are few and far between and are an exception to the rule. There are exceptions to rules that will make any argument for or against a topic seem skewed.

Take your facts talk somewhere else dude because in this case it holds no water with me and I grow tired of arguing with it you because you contradict yourself and don't listen to anybody else. Ive spend hours over the last 2 days talking about this with you and I tried to end it peacefully twice because it was apparent that it wasn't going anywhere positive and wonder of all wonders, I was correct, yet you continue to :deadhorse: .

BlackGold4vr
01-27-2007, 01:02 PM
Dude.......you are the one with the bad attitude. I am not mad, I am laughing. Your claims are false and when I called you out on them you become snippy. You won't support the claims about huge D-lineman because they CANNOT be supported. Just like I said in my earlier post you can't admit that perhaps you stuck your feet in your mouth. Its okay.....I see your MO. Make staements that are false and if questioned start throwing insults instead of supporting your claims. There are enough other knowledgeable fans in here that we can co-exist and in the future I will know better than to question your outrageous claims...........I will just consider the source. Have a nice day!

Steeler Nation 4vr!

BlitzburghRockCity
01-27-2007, 01:14 PM
Dude.......you are the one with the bad attitude. I am not mad, I am laughing. Your claims are false and when I called you out on them you become snippy. You won't support the claims about huge D-lineman because they CANNOT be supported. Just like I said in my earlier post you can't admit that perhaps you stuck your feet in your mouth. Its okay.....I see your MO. Make staements that are false and if questioned start throwing insults instead of supporting your claims. There are enough other knowledgeable fans in here that we can co-exist and in the future I will know better than to question your outrageous claims...........I will just consider the source. Have a nice day!

Steeler Nation 4vr!

Dude you proved once again that you just don't have a clue, as much as you may think you do in your own mind. You're new around here and if you ask anybody on here they will tell you that I get along well with everyone and I respect everybody's opinion. If I believe I am proven incorrect I admit and I have in the past, since you're such a research/stat guy, go read my posts and you'll see.

I stand by my claim no matter how much you want to say I don't so don't go after my attitude or reputation to try and make me look bad while making yourself look good. Ive seen your type before, Ive been on forums for years and years and Ive seen your type so get over yourself. If and when I am proven wrong in a topic I am the first to give props to that person but your unsubstantiated claims about our players and 43 do not convince me in the least because you're naming individual players versus an entire team defense, however once again you know better than an NFL head coach so I'll just let you stay in your dream world.

I have better things to do than to continue to beat this topic to death because we're not going to agree. I think you are dead wrong and you think Im dead wrong so just drop it already. One other thing, don't call me out saying you know my MO because you have no idea. My reputation on this board is good because the members and I get along great and we have alot of fun so don't go thinking you know more than you do my friend.

big d
01-27-2007, 01:14 PM
My opinion on covereting to the tampa 2 which is the defense that tomlin has worked under most of his career is this, I dont think it would take years to implement. If we get a couple players in the draft and maybe a free agent we could be set. I"ve heard several arguements on the 8-8 season let me ask you all this. 1. Cowhers decison to constantly rush ben back from injurys were crucial to what his stats were, One could argue that if he would have taken his time with ben the interception numbers would be cut in half. I think if he would have kept batch in through the first four weeks of the offense we would have probably ran the ball more. 2. I think santonio holmes had some very very crucial fumbles returning kicks. I can think of one fumble against the falcons that killed us. 3. Penaltys. I think this was the most undisciplined steeler teams I can ever remeber. I think it was cowhers overall lack of emmotion and effort he put in this year. Just to let you all know mike tomlin is not a rah rah guy. You can certainly compare his personality to tony dungy. But he is well respected by his players. There are some players on the viking defense who wanted the vikings to fire Childress and name tomlin head coach.

BlitzburghRockCity
01-27-2007, 01:27 PM
Absolutely I think most of us here on the site would agree that Cowher either rushed Ben back or Ben said he was ready when he really wasnt because he's such a competitor. It all has a trickle down effect. Santonio's fumbles, dumb penalities by the defense, the list goes on and on which all contributed to a very undisciplined team the likes of which we've not seen under the cowher era.

Im anxious to see how the team reacts to and responds to a non rah rah type of guy like Tomlin.

BlackGold4vr
01-27-2007, 01:27 PM
Full of yourself and unable to admit when you are wrong! You still have not named even 1 D-line that fits your description of what we "must have" to support a 4-3 defense. I have stated that I don't care what defense Tomlin runs as long as we are successful. You are the one who put our players in a box and claimed they couldn't play outside that box. I merely tried to show you with example after example after example other teams 4-3 defenses that do not employ players of the size requirements that you stated we had to have! Many other posters within this topic have agreed! Guess we are all wrong! I can't understand why Tomlin hasn't called you directly to ask you to help coach this team. Because apparently you know better than anybody else what our players can and cannot do! Which hall should I look for your bust in the next time I visit Canton Ohio?

:nahnah:

BlitzburghRockCity
01-27-2007, 01:57 PM
Now you're using my Tomlin argument that you know better than he does, against me? comon man ! I refuted your statements that you named individual players who are on teams with sub par defenses overall so that proves my point. It takes more than 1 good player to make a successful defense. I refuted all the defenses and players you named so yes I did state my point that I believe to be true, even though you continue so say that I didnt. Again, can we please just agree to disagree because Ive said my peace, Ive stated my side vs your side, and going on is pointless. Everybody is allowed to have their opinion, and if you read this thread there are some that agree with you, some with me and some that agree with both us.

I don't think our current personnel are set for a 43 and I stand by that, you think they do, so be it.

K Train
01-27-2007, 02:02 PM
break it up you two lol

big d
01-27-2007, 02:04 PM
Now you're using my Tomlin argument that you know better than he does, against me? comon man ! I refuted your statements that you named individual players who are on teams with sub par defenses overall so that proves my point. It takes more than 1 good player to make a successful defense. I refuted all the defenses and players you named so yes I did state my point that I believe to be true, even though you continue so say that I didnt. Again, can we please just agree to disagree because Ive said my peace, Ive stated my side vs your side, and going on is pointless. Everybody is allowed to have their opinion, and if you read this thread there are some that agree with you, some with me and some that agree with both us.

I don't think our current personnel are set for a 43 and I stand by that, you think they do, so be it.

I agree with you. I think that if Tomlin thought he could run the 4-3 or tampa 2 dick lebeau wouldnt be comming back next year.

BlackGold4vr
01-27-2007, 03:49 PM
There are no ill feelings here. I consider everyone who roots for the black & gold to be a family. Even families have squabbles. Just like every other fan I will sit back and enjoy the show of wherever Mike Tomlin leads our beloved team. Its his show and if the Rooney's can trust him with our teams future then so can I! I agree that we won't agree and if we sitting on bar stools watching a game I would buy you a beer! No hard feelings.

:beer4:

BlitzburghRockCity
01-27-2007, 05:15 PM
Beer accepted and the favor returned 10 fold ! :drinkup: Bleeding black n gold may make us perfect in the NFL world ;) but yes stuff happens so it's all good. Enjoy yourself around here and have fun !