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SteelerFan87
01-18-2007, 07:20 PM
Here's some stats from various significant games of a certain quarterback. I'll let you decide what you think of them and who the QB might be before I tell you who it is.

1. 13/23, 168 yards, 0 TD, 0 INT

2. 6.0 AVG Yrds per attempt, 0 TD, 1 INT

3. 12/18, 115 yrds, 0 TD, 0 INT

4. 5.37 AVG Yrds per attempt, 16/27, 145 yrds, 1 TD

5. (Total stats from 1st playoff season) 60/97, 572 yards, 1 TD, 1 INT

6. "career playoff adjusted yards per attempt ratio? 6.23. Career playoff QB rating? 86.8. Average unadjusted yards per attempt? 6.60. Completion percentage? 60.6%. EVERY ONE OF THOSE NUMBERS ARE LOWER THAN HIS CAREER REGULAR SEASON AVERAGES."


So to what QB do these stats/facts belong?

SteelerDan43
01-18-2007, 07:22 PM
Peyton Manning??

House of Steel
01-18-2007, 07:40 PM
manning for sure. Brady wouldn't put up numbers like this in the playoffs.

AZ_Steeler
01-18-2007, 08:33 PM
It's not Ben because he had far more int's than that :lol:

SteelerFan87
01-18-2007, 08:34 PM
It's not Ben because he had far more int's than that :lol:

And alot more touchdowns.

Stairwayto7
01-18-2007, 09:17 PM
Bens rookie season!

House of Steel
01-18-2007, 09:19 PM
ahhhhhhh Cleve striked gold.

SteelerFan87
01-18-2007, 09:34 PM
And the answer is........... Tom Brady.

1. 13/23, 168 yards, 0 TD, 0 INT (This is his 1st game against the Colts, a team he "owns")

2. 6.0 AVG Yrds per attempt, 0 TD, 1 INT (the infamous Tuck Rule game)

3. 12/18, 115 yrds, 0 TD, 0 INT (01 AFC Championship against the Steelers)

4. 5.37 AVG Yrds per attempt, 16/27, 145 yrds, 1 TD (01 SB against the Rams, when he was the "MVP", lol)

5. (Total stats from 1st playoff season) 60/97, 572 yards, 1 TD, 1 INT (That's 3 games. Only 572 yards and 1 TD in 3 games? And this is the next Joe Montana?)

6. "career playoff adjusted yards per attempt ratio? 6.23. Career playoff QB rating? 86.8. Average unadjusted yards per attempt? 6.60. Completion percentage? 60.6%. EVERY ONE OF THOSE NUMBERS ARE LOWER THAN HIS CAREER REGULAR SEASON AVERAGES."
(Let's see, dink and dunk passes and his stats are actually worse than in the regular season? What happened to Brady being such a great playoff QB?)

Black@Gold Forever32
01-18-2007, 10:23 PM
Here is a stat for you 12-1. Thats Tom Bradys play-off record. To go along with 19 TD's and 8 INT's.

As for the tuck game. The conditions were bad for throwing the ball in that game.

The 2001 AFC title game vs the Steelers Brady was knocked out of the game and Drew Bledsoe came in.

As for his first Super Bowl vs the Rams. He did enough to win the game.

I don't were I would rank Tom Brady in the best QB's of alltime. I know he wouldn't crack my top five and I have Montana third on my list.

But Tom Brady never has had the offensive talent around him that Montana had. I don't like Tom Brady either but he has proven to be a great QB and probally the best today.

SteelerFan87
01-18-2007, 11:09 PM
But 12-1 is a team record. It's not like Brady is the only guy on the field. Kordell Stewart was 13-3 twice, does that make him awesome?

Here's the whole post I got this from that makes a more thorough point. I just posted the stats first because I wanted people to see them and think "that guy must suck" before finding out that it's Tom Brady and letting the whole "Tom Brady is the best QB ever because he just is" crap that the media spews all the time influence their opinions.

"Chase Stuart, now my new best friend has done a very good job of showing that Tom Brady has gotten this Joe Montana-playoff reputation...and IT IS NOT DESERVED!!!!

Taken from the rant...which you can find here.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/blog/wordpress/

1st Brady Colts-Pats game:

"Amazingly enough, Brady’s whole career is a microcosm of his first game. The underdog Patriots beat the Colts, 44-13. And Brady gets the credit…while throwing 13/23, 168 yards and no scores."

"But still, 12-1 all time in the playoffs! This guy is incredible! And then he goes out and throws three INTs against the Chargers, and absolutely should have thrown at least five. The only people with worse hands in the stadium than the Chargers DBs were the Chargers WRs. How in the world does Brady get the credit for that win? I started seeing the signs already, people saying how Brady led them to that victory. The Chargers absolutely gave that game away, and yet Brady supporters will point to that 13-1 record as if Brady should be sainted."

2001 Tuck Rule Game:

"Somehow, Brady became the story line. He averaged 6.00 yards per attempt, and had 0 TDs and 1 INT in the game. That’s not a good game. Yes, I know it was snowing, but let’s not make a game with zero TDs and one interception (and another should be fumble) into a good game."

2001 AFCC Game:

"Ok, so two kick returns for TDs go a long way. How’d Brady do? He was 12/18 for 115 yards, 0 TD, 0 INT. Brady got hurt in the first half, and Drew Bledsoe came in and led the Pats to their only offensive TD and a FG, which means Brady wasn’t responsible for any of the 24 points scored by the Pats that day."

2001 Super Bowl:

"Up comes the Super Bowl….that’s where Brady becomes Joe Montana and Johnny Unitas, but better, right? Brady averaged 5.37 yards per attempt that day, in a largely nondescript performance. The Pats had an INT returned for a TD by Ty Law, and an INT returned for 30 yards that set up a FG. In the 4th quarter, with the Rams coming back from their three turnover day, Brady’s Pats went 3 and out twice in the final ten minutes."

"Finally, New England got the ball back where Brady led “THE DRIVE”. Right?

Starting on the Patriots’ own 17-yard line with 1:21 remaining, Brady picked up a first down with an innocent 8-yard dump to J.R. Redmond for a first down. He hooked up with Redmond again two plays later for an 11-yard reception and another first down at the New England 41. [In between there was a five yard dump to Redmond].

Brady threw incomplete, then connected with Troy Brown over the middle, and Brown managed to turn up field and get out of bounds at the St. Louis 36 for a 23-yard gain. Now, with only 21 seconds left, Brady threw a short pass in the right flat to tight end Jermaine Wiggins, who fought his way to the Rams’ 30-yard line. Brady calmly spiked the ball to stop the clock with seven seconds to play.

Where is the great play here? Was it “calmly” spiking the ball? Brady “led” a drive by dumping the ball off while the Rams played a prevent defense, and then his kicker hit a 48 yarder to win it. Pats fans watch that drive and noticed how poised Brady was, but there was of course nothing special about it.

Brady’s final post-season numbers: 60/97, 572 yards, 1 TD, 1 INT and he led his team to 13 points in four quarters against the Raiders, 0 points against the Steelers, and 10 points against the Rams. Never did a QB get praised more for doing less"

"But of course we do watch playoff football, where Tom Brady becomes…well, I’ll let you decide. Brady’s career playoff adjusted yards per attempt ratio? 6.23. Career playoff QB rating? 86.8. Average unadjusted yards per attempt? 6.60. Completion percentage? 60.6%. I won’t make you scroll up….EVERY ONE OF THOSE NUMBERS ARE LOWER THAN HIS CAREER REGULAR SEASON AVERAGES. Brady doesn’t turn from Drew Brees and Matt Hasselbeck into Joe Montana and Johnny Unitas in the post-season, he turns into a slightly less effective version of himself.

"Yet Patriots fans think he will end his career as The Best QB of All Time. Which I find pretty interesting, considering you’d be hard pressed to point to a single great season Brady has had. Maybe you remember this summer, when I looked at the best QBs of all time in both a single season and for a career. Here are Brady’s ranks:


Year Rank
2005 85th best of all time
2004 182nd best of all time
2003 231st best of all time
2001 480th best of all time

"The Pats are obliterating everyone they face in 2003, and lead the league in points allowed that year. In particular, New England’s incredible against the pass, leading the league in yards per attempt allowed, TDs allowed, and interceptions. Even this year’s Ravens couldn’t do that. So if you want to start giving credit for a 14-2 season, that’s the first place you should look.

"New England beat Tennessee 17-14, after Brady led New England on a 13 yard drive to kick the eventual game winning field goal. That’s not a 13 play drive, but a 13 yard drive."

"So Tom Brady’s 5-0, after being incredibly lucky in the first three playoff games, and having an incredible defense in the last two. Now comes the Super Bowl, where even I’ll admit Brady played an excellent game. He threw for 354 yards and 3 TDs, although to be fair that come on a whopping 48 attempts and he did throw an INT. It wasn’t one of the top ten Super Bowl stat lines of all time by a QB, and it wasn’t even the best by a QB that day. Jake Delhomme ate up The Genius’ D by throwing for 323 yards on 15 fewer passes, and had 3 TDs and zero INTs.

Bottom line: Great coaching...great defense...allow very few points.

Tom Brady: Dink and dunk SYSTEM quarterback that has completely ridden the coattails of Belichick and the Pats defense to this mythical and completely over-inflated, East Coast Media Biased hype.

Tom Brady doesn't just win games. Belichick and the Pats defense win the games...Brady just doesn't lose them."



People call Roethlisberger a "system QB" and a "game manager", but Brady is the master of those 2 titles.

Black@Gold Forever32
01-18-2007, 11:22 PM
How good of a coach was Belichick in Cleveland? He wasn't the so called genius as coach of the Browns. So its safe to say Belichick owes Brady in winning three Super Bowls. Plus Brady wouldn't have won without Little Bill.

No kidding 12-1 is a team record. Thanks for telling me that. Wow the Pats defense helped in the Pats winning 3 Super Bowls. I'm so glad you told me that. Well Terry Bradshaw had a pretty good defense in winning four Super Bowls. Probally the greatest defense ever. I guess Bradshaw is a piece of **** like Brady.

I just find it funny people continue to knock Tom Brady. The guy has won three Super Bowls and was a 6th round pick. The guy has proven to be a great QB. Plus the dink and dunk system you refer to. I guess you didn't pay attention when Brady threw that bomb to Deion Branch in the 2004 title game against the Steelers?

Brady doesn't have a cannon for an arm. But he takes his shots when he has to. Plus Tom Brady never has had elite WR's to throw to. I don't like Brady either but he is a proven winner and will be in the Hall of Fame. Like I said I wouldn't put Brady in my top five. But he is a great QB.

Black@Gold Forever32
01-18-2007, 11:35 PM
Here is Tom Brady's career stats.

21,564 yards and completed 62 percent of his passes.
His TD/INT ratio is 147-78

Thats his regular season stats. He isn't Peyton Manning during the regular season but he is still very good. I would take that to go along with his success in the play-offs.

I think all great QB's had help. From Johnny Unitas, Joe Namath, Terry Bradshaw, Roger Staubach,Joe Montana, John Elway,Troy Aikman didn't win Super Bowl by themselves. They all had great teams like Tom Brady.

Only four QB's have won Three Super Bowls or more. Troy Aikman, Tom Brady, Terry Bradshaw and Joe Montana.

SteelerFan87
01-18-2007, 11:39 PM
I don't feel like looking up Bradshaw's stats for a comparison, but I'm sure they're probably better. And yeah, Bradshaw had a great team, which is why I also don't put him in the top 5 QBs ever, but I'd still take him over Brady.

And yeah, Brady does get lucky on those bombs sometimes, like the one to Branch you mentioned. But look at the Chargers game. He kept trying to go deep and was horribly innaccurate, other than that 1 pass he completed to Caldwell along the sideline. If I was looking for a vertical pass offense I'd pick Manning or Roethlisberger. If I wanted the little dink and dunk passes, I'd also rather go with Manning or Ben, because they can do that in addition to throwing down the field. Just about every play on Brady's famous game winning drives have been short dump offs to the flat or 5 yards over the middle against a defense in deep pass coverage with the reciever running for another 5-10 yards after the catch.

I'll give Brady credit for a few things. He usually has good pocket sense and is able to find the right spot to throw from, he's calm under pressure (as in not having alot of time left, not blitzing. I've seen Brady get rattled easily by a decent blitz), and he's a good leader. But those kinds of things don't make him a great QB, they make him an effective QB when he doesn't have to win the game by himself. Brady on the 2000 Ravens would have been a perfect fit. Brady in a situation where he is the focal point, like Peyton Manning or John Elway or Dan Marino, would be a failure.

Personally I have more respect for a Dan Marino type QB than a glorified Trent Dilfer with nice leadership qualities.

Black@Gold Forever32
01-18-2007, 11:53 PM
A glorified Trent Dilfer? With a statement like that I don't know how serious I can take your posts? I would review that statement.lol As for Dan Marino I also have alot of respect for Danny Boy. The second best QB of alltime in my opinion behind only Johnny Unitas.

Yea Tom Brady would suck throwing to Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne,Brandon Stokley like Peyton Manning has enjoyed. Plus Brady never has had elite RB's like Marshall Faulk and Edge James like Peyton has enjoyed. Brady finally had Corey Dillon from the 2004 season and on but Dillon is past his prime. Look at that 2003 season when the Pats had no running game and Tom Brady carried that team.

As for stating you would want Ben over Tom Brady. I'm the biggest Ben fan around. I have watched the dude since his Miami of Ohio days but as of right now Tom Brady is the better QB.

Just to let you know Brady had more 40+ completions then Peyton Manning this year with far less talent at WR then Peyton Manning. Its alright to hate Tom Brady but your lame attempt to knock Tom Brady is well lame.

SteelerFan87
01-19-2007, 12:19 AM
A glorified Trent Dilfer? With a statement like that I don't know how serious I can take your posts? I would review that statement.lol
Ok, I guess "glorified Trent Dilfer" isn't the best way to put it. More like Trent Dilfer is a poor man's Tom Brady.


Yea Tom Brady would suck throwing to Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne,Brandon Stokley like Peyton Manning has enjoyed. Plus Brady never has had elite RB's like Marshall Faulk and Edge James like Peyton has enjoyed. Brady finally had Corey Dillon from the 2004 season and on but Dillon is past his prime. Look at that 2003 season when the Pats had no running game and Tom Brady carried that team.
Skill of the WRs has less impact on the QB than the skill of the QB has on WRs. Some guys have an edge in hands, but it's rarely a huge edge, some guys run better routes, but again it's not like any WRs in the league suck at running routes. The biggest aspects of a WR that make a difference are speed and size, and those aren't skills, they're physical attributes.

As for a running game, as Brady has said, before they got Dillon their passing game WAS their running game. Short little dinks and dunks are about the same as running the ball, only the guy doesn't have to get through the defensive line to get yards.


As for stating you would want Ben over Tom Brady. I'm the biggest Ben fan around. I have watched the dude since his Miami of Ohio days but as of right now Tom Brady is the better QB. This year, yeah Brady was better than Ben. But I'd rather have Ben at the top of his game than Brady on the top of his.


Just to let you know Brady had more 40+ completions then Peyton Manning this year with far less talent at WR then Peyton Manning. Its alright to hate Tom Brady but your lame attempt to knock Tom Brady is well lame.

I'm not saying Brady doesn't try to throw deep, and he has some fast recievers that fit that strategy thanks to that speed, I'm just saying that Brady is mediocre at deep passing, and he's at his best when he can dink and dunk underneath deep coverage. Manning this year, as has been pointed out in just about every game I've seen him play this year, is facing defenses that are refusing to give up the deep passes, and so he's settling for the underneath stuff untill he gets a chance to throw deep.

I'm not saying Brady is terrible, I'm saying that he's horribly overrated. Everything you hear in the media is how great Brady is. When people think of the Patriots, they think it must be Brady because like you said, he's never had truly great recieving corps and he's been one of the only guys to stay with the team while alot of other guys have been replaced. But that's just a kneejerk "his team keeps winning, so it must be him" reaction. If you really look deeper at it, he's not nearly as amazing as he's proclaimed to be.

Black@Gold Forever32
01-19-2007, 12:32 AM
Joe Montana didn't have the strongest arm either. Plus its safe to say Bill Walsh had the perfect system for Joe. So I have heard this arguement before the same things you say about Tom Brady were said about Joe Montana.

Look I'm not a Tom Brady fan at all. I hate the guy but you don't win three Super Bowls by accident. I would take him over any QB in the league right now. He has proven to be the best clutch QB in the game. I'll take that anyday over arm strength.

SteelerFan87
01-19-2007, 12:55 AM
You can take him if you want. I'll be happy with Manning, Ben, Brees, or Bulger throwing well to every part of the field while you enjoy Brady dinking and dunking and connecting on the occasionall deep pass.

Black@Gold Forever32
01-19-2007, 01:09 AM
You can take him if you want. I'll be happy with Manning, Ben, Brees, or Bulger throwing well to every part of the field while you enjoy Brady dinking and dunking and connecting on the occasionall deep pass.


Ok you really should think before posting.lol You rather have a proven play-off choker like Peyton Manning then a three time Super Bowl winner?:bluelol:

I could make a case for Ben since he has youth on his side and is still growing as an QB.

As for Drew Brees and Marc Bulger.

Hey Drew Brees is an awesome QB. But one play-off win doesn't cancel out three Super Bowl wins. Plus you seem so stuck on a strong arm. Brees doesn't have a cannon when it comes to arm strength.

Then Marc Bulger again he is a very good QB but isn't special like Tom Brady.

Quit being a hater and give the guy the respect he deserves as a QB.

Steelersfan
01-19-2007, 01:28 AM
I for one will give the Patriots team the respect they deserve. Brady on the other hand has done nothing more than Ben did in his first 2 seasons. (I'll give him a buy for this past season with everything that went on.) Brady manages the game and doesn't usually cost his team. I don't think he is a "great" QB by any means but I would take him over a lot of QB's in this league. I can't say if I would take Manning over him or not. That would depend mostly on how the team was built.

SteelerFan87
01-19-2007, 01:29 AM
Ok you really should think before posting.lol You rather have a proven play-off choker like Peyton Manning then a three time Super Bowl winner?:bluelol:

I could make a case for Ben since he has youth on his side and is still growing as an QB.

As for Drew Brees and Marc Bulger.

Hey Drew Brees is an awesome QB. But one play-off win doesn't cancel out three Super Bowl wins. Plus you seem so stuck on a strong arm. Brees doesn't have a cannon when it comes to arm strength.

Then Marc Bulger again he is a very good QB but isn't special like Tom Brady.

Quit being a hater and give the guy the respect he deserves as a QB.

People blame every playoff loss on Manning, and yeah, in some of them he has been absolutely terrible. But in others, it's pretty hard to complete passes when you're lying on your back all day, or your defense can't stop anybody, or your normally sure handed recievers drop passes that are right in their hands. And the games when Manning has looked his worst are against the Pats and Belichick, who has had Manning's number for a long time. Now, I'm not sure that's still the case considering the Colts have won the last 2 games against the Pats. We'll see this Sunday.

And I'm not focusing on a strong arm. Michael Vick has a very strong arm, but that doesn't mean he's good at throwing deep. I'm talking about the ability to throw ACCURATELY past 10 yards. Brady can get the ball down the field, but he is off target or overthrows/underthrows his recievers more often than he completes those passes.

House of Steel
01-19-2007, 01:31 AM
I would take Ben over Manning and Brady anyday. I don't care what others say. Ben has proven time and time again what a warrior he is, a scrambler on the run, and his skill of passing on the run is what makes him special. He is a leader, a field general, and just plain awesome to watch. His best years of his career is ahead of him yet.

TEEMONT
01-19-2007, 03:11 AM
(mind you I posted this before I read HOS's previous post)

The ONLY thing I have to say about this thread is:

Raise your hand if you WOULDN'T trade Brady for Ben str8 up!

(my hand just dropped to the basement)

Brady is a damn champ......FROM?????? MICHIGAN!!!

As much I hate him, I would take him over any QB in the game today.

SteelerFan87
01-19-2007, 04:03 AM
(mind you I posted this before I read HOS's previous post)

The ONLY thing I have to say about this thread is:

Raise your hand if you WOULDN'T trade Brady for Ben str8 up!

(my hand just dropped to the basement)

Brady is a damn champ......FROM?????? MICHIGAN!!!

As much I hate him, I would take him over any QB in the game today.

Ben is a champ too, he just hasn't finished winning championships like brady has. :greengrin: :tt02:

BlitzburghRockCity
01-19-2007, 08:30 AM
I don't know all the stats on Brady, nor do I care to since I hate the Pats in general, however when the guy has absolutely had to deliver in clutch games in the playoffs and superbowls, he's been able to lead his team on drives and eat up clock to put them in a position to win. He's shown some things we haven't seen in his career yet, this season where we've seen him have several multi-interception games, take sacks, miss WR's, things he hasnt done much of since he got here. How much of that is the lack of talent on that team anymore, or how much is Brady just having an off year is anybody's guess.

House of Steel
01-19-2007, 10:47 AM
Don't worry, Stillers#1, Ben will be right up there with Brady pretty darn soon. With the fresh new faces on Offense, I believe Ben will be allowed to open up more on the passing game and exploit his true potential. I warn everyone now, if this comes about, Ben will have years that will blow everyone away. I see this happening. The Dawn of a New Era in the Steelers Offense has begun.

Friday133
01-19-2007, 12:21 PM
I would take Ben over Manning and Brady anyday. I don't care what others say. Ben has proven time and time again what a warrior he is, a scrambler on the run, and his skill of passing on the run is what makes him special. He is a leader, a field general, and just plain awesome to watch. His best years of his career is ahead of him yet.


this just might be the biggest homer statement i've ever read.

how can anyone that is a football fan not like tom brady? the guy is a winner, he's a leader. he knows when to make plays to put his team over the top, point in case was the pass to caldwell last week. you guys can take all the stats you want with manning and bulger, but if you want to win a title, tom brady is your guy.

Friday133
01-19-2007, 12:30 PM
frankly this is going to be a bad discussion, epsecially here. being a steelers fan site its tough for some to take off the black and gold colored sunglasses.

Steelerlyn
01-19-2007, 12:30 PM
I for one will give the Patriots team the respect they deserve. Brady on the other hand has done nothing more than Ben did in his first 2 seasons. (I'll give him a buy for this past season with everything that went on.) Brady manages the game and doesn't usually cost his team. I don't think he is a "great" QB by any means but I would take him over a lot of QB's in this league. I can't say if I would take Manning over him or not. That would depend mostly on how the team was built.

Also, didn't the kicker actually WIN the games? The kicker who is no longer there.

Friday133
01-19-2007, 12:31 PM
brady put that kicker in position to win the game.

Steelersfan
01-19-2007, 01:17 PM
Well if you want to be real about it Brady just made short dump passes so the players who caught those passes really put them in position.

House of Steel
01-19-2007, 02:13 PM
Friday, I resent that statement you made about calling me a homer. At least Ben didn't get a Tuck Rule play in his favor like Brady did, that was a fumble plain and simple. Brady is a dirtbag, I don't care how good he is, I still wouldn't have him on my team. Ben is better and more mobile than that fool ever will be. So what, he won 3 Super Bowls. He isn't near Montana or Bradshaw or Elway in terms of play style. Brady would be in top 30 at about 25.

Friday133
01-19-2007, 03:09 PM
Friday, I resent that statement you made about calling me a homer. At least Ben didn't get a Tuck Rule play in his favor like Brady did, that was a fumble plain and simple. Brady is a dirtbag, I don't care how good he is, I still wouldn't have him on my team. Ben is better and more mobile than that fool ever will be. So what, he won 3 Super Bowls. He isn't near Montana or Bradshaw or Elway in terms of play style. Brady would be in top 30 at about 25.

wow and you call yourself a football fan? i've seen some real crazy posts on message boards but this takes the cake. again, not only are you a homer, but you have zero clue about football. i guess you'd think tom brady isn't worthy of being in the hall of fame either.:rolleyes: BTW let me know what type of drugs you take, i'd like to be as out of it as you are.

SteelerFan87
01-19-2007, 04:02 PM
Well if you want to be real about it Brady just made short dump passes so the players who caught those passes really put them in position.

Exactly. Maybe if every one of his "great drives" didn't consist of passes that remind me more of handoffs than passes, with the recievers running for more yardage after the catch than the distance Brady threw the ball, then I might respect his accomplishments. But all Brady does is toss the ball way underneath defenses that are in deep coverage and lets his recievers do all the work.

Notice the part where one of his "great game winning drives" was 13 yards. Not 13 plays, 13 YARDS. That's 1 pass for any QB not named Brady. And yet that counts as one of his great 4th quarter comebacks. :willybs: (Yes! Finally a use for that smilie!)

Friday133
01-19-2007, 04:14 PM
Exactly. Maybe if every one of his "great drives" didn't consist of passes that remind me more of handoffs than passes, with the recievers running for more yardage after the catch than the distance Brady threw the ball, then I might respect his accomplishments. But all Brady does is toss the ball way underneath defenses that are in deep coverage and lets his recievers do all the work.

Notice the part where one of his "great game winning drives" was 13 yards. Not 13 plays, 13 YARDS. That's 1 pass for any QB not named Brady. And yet that counts as one of his great 4th quarter comebacks. :willybs: (Yes! Finally a use for that smilie!)

i guess you never saw joe montana or john elway handle a comeback drive. what's sad is your hatred for brady has more to do with you being a steelers fan, than being a fan of football. you, are the second biggest homer next to HOS.

SteelerFan87
01-19-2007, 05:07 PM
Yes. Because only Steelers fans hate Tom Brady.

Steelersfan
01-19-2007, 05:15 PM
i guess you never saw joe montana or john elway handle a comeback drive. what's sad is your hatred for brady has more to do with you being a steelers fan, than being a fan of football. you, are the second biggest homer next to HOS.

I'd say that's about enough of the homer crap. 87 gave you some facts to back up his opinion and nothing had to do with him being a Steelers fan. You're basically saying that if a Steelers fan doesn't think Brady is the greatest they are homers.
Why don't you give me his career stats and let me know how he compares to Montana, Elway, Marino and then I'll decide after he retires if he belongs in the HOF.

Friday133
01-19-2007, 05:22 PM
I'd say that's about enough of the homer crap. 87 gave you some facts to back up his opinion and nothing had to do with him being a Steelers fan. You're basically saying that if a Steelers fan doesn't think Brady is the greatest they are homers.
Why don't you give me his career stats and let me know how he compares to Montana, Elway, Marino and then I'll decide after he retires if he belongs in the HOF.

so your saying you have a HOF vote?

Friday133
01-19-2007, 05:26 PM
BTW here's a link to Brady's career stats, looks pretty impressive to me.

Tom Brady's Stats (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/187741)

Steelersfan
01-19-2007, 05:28 PM
No I don't, but it has been said earlier in this thread that he will be in the HOF. I tend to wait until a player retires before coming to an opinion on that.

Steelersfan
01-19-2007, 05:37 PM
BTW here's a link to Brady's career stats, looks pretty impressive to me.

Tom Brady's Stats (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/187741)

And here's a few for you if you want to see impressive.

Dan Marino (http://www.danmarino.com/careerstats.htm)

Joe Montana (http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/member.jsp?player_id=154)

John Elway (http://www.johnelway.com/career.aspx)

And here's a current player nobody talk about but with stats just as good as Bradys.

Drew Brees (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/235197)

Steelersfan
01-19-2007, 05:42 PM
And if you want to see what a real Super Bowl MVP puts up for stats and how one of the greatest QB's to play makes a comeback, read this.
http://espn.go.com/sportscentury/features/00016306.html

If Brady came anywhere near this I would give him more credit. But the truth is he is a decent QB and not "great".

Black@Gold Forever32
01-19-2007, 08:13 PM
No I don't, but it has been said earlier in this thread that he will be in the HOF. I tend to wait until a player retires before coming to an opinion on that.

Well only four QB's have won three or more Super Bowls as it stand right now. The four Joe Montana, Terry Bradshaw with their four. Then Troy Aikman and Tom Brady with their three. Now Montana, Bradshaw and Aikman were first ballot Hall of Famers. Its safe Tom Brady will be in the Hall of Fame plus those three had alot more talent around them then Tom Brady.

Now about the career stats. If Tom continues the pace he is on he will pass both Bradshaw and Aikman in stats. The reason I just mention these four since these are the only four with three or more Super Bowls. Which three are already in the Hall of Fame.

I guess the question should be....What "is greatness"? Now thats the problem. What I think might be great might not what you think. Thats why its all opinion and what makes debating fun.

House of Steel
01-19-2007, 08:20 PM
wow and you call yourself a football fan? i've seen some real crazy posts on message boards but this takes the cake. again, not only are you a homer, but you have zero clue about football. i guess you'd think tom brady isn't worthy of being in the hall of fame either.:rolleyes: BTW let me know what type of drugs you take, i'd like to be as out of it as you are.


Why are you so damn hostile with me lately? I am just asking a question. If your telling me I don't know anything about football, how come I am getting all kind of praises when I write articles on the pre game and post game of the Steelers? Explain that to me? Why are you getting so personal about what medications I am taking? You need to stop being so hostile with me, Please. Is that too much to ask for. That medication statement was not needed. I thought we was friends for pete's sakes with respect for one another?

DIESELMAN
01-19-2007, 08:21 PM
Everybody here knows as well as I do when it comes to the HOF they will not only look at the stats they will look at the number of rings. The HOF committee won't dissect the dink and dunk passes all they will see is 3(THEY AIN'T GETTING NO MORE!!!) rings.

House of Steel
01-19-2007, 08:26 PM
Steelersfan and Steelerfan87 made some very excellent points regarding to Brady and his stats, Friday. By the way, I would take Montana, Elway, Marino, Ben, and Brees over Brady any darn day. Brady is in a way a good QB, but let me say this right now, he wouldn't have three super bowl rings if it wasn't for the Patriots defense bailing his *** out most of the time, Vinateri bailing his *** out, and the receivers taking the hand offs and bailing him out. In other words, Brady is just your average QB. I like the points SF and SF87 mentioned to you. That goes to back my statements up quite clearly. Do yourself a favor, Friday and just stop the arguements. I don't want you being looked like a total fool anymore.

Friday133
01-19-2007, 08:32 PM
Steelersfan and Steelerfan87 made some very excellent points regarding to Brady and his stats, Friday. By the way, I would take Montana, Elway, Marino, Ben, and Brees over Brady any darn day. Brady is in a way a good QB, but let me say this right now, he wouldn't have three super bowl rings if it wasn't for the Patriots defense bailing his *** out most of the time, Vinateri bailing his *** out, and the receivers taking the hand offs and bailing him out. In other words, Brady is just your average QB. I like the points SF and SF87 mentioned to you. That goes to back my statements up quite clearly. Do yourself a favor, Friday and just stop the arguements. I don't want you being looked like a total fool anymore.

i guess you could say randel el, ward and parker bailed out ben last year. again, you don't like brady because he's beat the steelers twice. for you to say he's an average QB is absurd. but hey its your opinion and your entitled to it.

House of Steel
01-19-2007, 08:41 PM
Thank you that is more like it in a respecting way, Friday. I appreciate that very much. Well Parker bailing out on BEN? How in the hell do you figure that one out? Ward was hurt so like that is his fault? Your not making any sense here now, I am just saying. Randle El was a victim of putting mo money up his chute and look where it got him, a big all time BUST in Redskin Country.

You can worship Brady all you like, buddy. I can't stand the site of his face nor his playing cause it takes the defense to bail the *** passer out. Yes, he is an *** passer, if you need prove, let me know.

Friday133
01-19-2007, 08:54 PM
ben sucked last year in the super bowl based on your logic. so ward, randel el, and parker bailed him out. if it wasn't for their big plays the steelers would have lost. and mind you i really like ben.


You can worship Brady all you like, buddy. I can't stand the site of his face nor his playing cause it takes the defense to bail the *** passer out. Yes, he is an *** passer, if you need prove, let me know.

EXACTLY MY POINT! your opinion is based on your hatred of brady. if he played for a team in the NFC you wouldn't have a problem with him.

House of Steel
01-19-2007, 08:58 PM
Oh Yes I would. By the way, I read that wrong, so accept my stupidity apology. LOL. Brady can play in the NFC and I would still say he is an average QB. We won't have this discussion any further when Manning and Company expose the hell out of the Past.

Black@Gold Forever32
01-19-2007, 09:02 PM
Since I love to debate. I'm going to compare the first six seasons as a starter for both Tom Brady and Joe Montana. I'm not using both Bradys and Montanas rookie years. Since they were not the starter their rookie years.

Joe Montana
Att Comp Pct P.Yards TD INT

1980-273 176 64.5 1795 15 9
1981-488 311 63.7 3565 19 12
1982-346 213 61.6 2613 17 11
1983-515 332 64.5 3910 26 12
1984-432 279 64.6 3630 28 10
1985-494 303 61.3 3653 27 13

(1982 was a strike year) only nine starts for Joe

Tom Brady

2001-413 264 63.9 2843 18 12
2002-601 373 62.1 3764 28 14
2003-527 317 60.2 3620 23 12
2004-474 288 60.8 3692 28 14
2005-530 334 63.0 4110 26 14
2006-516 319 61.8 3529 24 12

I think they compare.

Steelersfan
01-19-2007, 09:39 PM
Compare all you want. Brady has about the same in TD's and INT's. That with quite a few more pass attempts. I'll give it to you that they are close. Now go look at playoff stats for both of them and tell me they are close. Montana ate teams up. Brady just doesn't lose games. To say he wins them is crazy. I'm sure Brady will be in the HOF when his career is over but I don't like speculating with someone who has only played 6 years. There are some who would put him in right now if they could.
I don't hate Brady but I also think the media gives him way too much credit.

House of Steel
01-19-2007, 10:20 PM
The Media are Brady's *** kissers. That is what makes me sick about him.

Black@Gold Forever32
01-19-2007, 10:21 PM
Compare all you want. Brady has about the same in TD's and INT's. That with quite a few more pass attempts. I'll give it to you that they are close. Now go look at playoff stats for both of them and tell me they are close. Montana ate teams up. Brady just doesn't lose games. To say he wins them is crazy. I'm sure Brady will be in the HOF when his career is over but I don't like speculating with someone who has only played 6 years. There are some who would put him in right now if they could.
I don't hate Brady but I also think the media gives him way too much credit.

Yes Brady did average more pass attempts. Of course Joe's yards and TD's would have been higher with the same amount of attempts. But his INT's would have been higher as well.

Look at Joe's first Super Bowl win his numbers are close to Brady's in his first. Joe didn't destroy anybody in that Super Bowl. Now the rest of Joe's Super Bowls his numbers were awesome.

But Brady's last two Super Bowls. The Super Bowl vs the Panthers Brady had over 330 yards with 3 TD's and 1 INT. Thats a great game and I think its safe to say he had a huge part in that win.

The Super Bowl vs the Eagles. Tom had over 230 yard with 2 TD's and 0 INT's. Not great numbers but very good numbers and again was a big part in that win.

To me Brady has the rings and the stats. He won't set any passer records when he is done but Tom Brady is on pace to have some really good stats and has the rings to back him up.

The guy is a great QB. Again I never claimed he was the best ever or would make my top five. But I do think Brady is a great QB and the best QB in the NFL today.

SteelerFan87
01-20-2007, 08:15 PM
Since I love to debate. I'm going to compare the first six seasons as a starter for both Tom Brady and Joe Montana. I'm not using both Bradys and Montanas rookie years. Since they were not the starter their rookie years.

Joe Montana
Att Comp Pct P.Yards TD INT

1980-273 176 64.5 1795 15 9
1981-488 311 63.7 3565 19 12
1982-346 213 61.6 2613 17 11
1983-515 332 64.5 3910 26 12
1984-432 279 64.6 3630 28 10
1985-494 303 61.3 3653 27 13

(1982 was a strike year) only nine starts for Joe

Tom Brady

2001-413 264 63.9 2843 18 12
2002-601 373 62.1 3764 28 14
2003-527 317 60.2 3620 23 12
2004-474 288 60.8 3692 28 14
2005-530 334 63.0 4110 26 14
2006-516 319 61.8 3529 24 12

I think they compare.

Ok, Montana had 400+ attempts 4 times in his first 6 seasons as a starter. Brady didn't have LESS that 400 attempts at any point in his first 6 seasons. Montana topped 500 attempts once, Brady did it 4 times, including 601 attempts in 2002. Conversely, Montana had a completion percentage of 64% or better 3 times in those first 6 years, while Brady didn't reach 64% at all. So I think we've established that Montana was a more efficient passer (which is odd, because Brady is known more for his efficiency than his yards or TDs).

Now lets look at yards per attempt.
Montana:
6.57
7.30
7.55
7.59
8.40
7.39

Brady:
6.88
6.26
6.86
7.78
7.75
6.83

Again, advantage Montana. He only had less that 7 ypa once, compared to Brady's 4 times.

And then there's this:
"he led the 49ers 92 yards, throwing for the winning touchdown with 34 seconds left." (Note: winning TOUCHDOWN, not Field Goal)

"In these four games, he put up Super numbers, completing 83-of-122 passes (68 percent) for 1,142 yards with 11 touchdowns and no interceptions. His quarterback rating was 127.8 (while nobody outside the Elias Sports Bureau knows how to compute this rating, or even what it means, it is known that 127.8 is a figure beyond that of mortal men)." (Don't know Brady's exact SB stats, but I doubt they're better than this)

"He made the throw on the play that became known as The Catch. That's when a scrambling Montana, with three Cowboys closing in for the kill, lofted the ball in the end zone to Dwight Clark. The six-yard touchdown pass, with 51 seconds left, gave the 49ers a 28-27 victory over Dallas for the 1981 NFC championship." (Look, another touchdown!)

One of the reasons I laugh when people compare Brady to Montana in terms of game winning drives, is that Montana could get the ball anywhere and go down and throw a touchdown pass to win it. Brady, in most of his game winning drives, gets the ball in great field position, completes a few 5 yard passes, then goes over to the sideline and watches Adam Vinatieri win the game.

I'm not saying Brady isn't good. But to list him among the all time greats is laughable.

Black@Gold Forever32
01-20-2007, 08:23 PM
Ok, Montana had 400+ attempts 4 times in his first 6 seasons as a starter. Brady didn't have LESS that 400 attempts at any point in his first 6 seasons. Montana topped 500 attempts once, Brady did it 4 times, including 601 attempts in 2002. Conversely, Montana had a completion percentage of 64% or better 3 times in those first 6 years, while Brady didn't reach 64% at all. So I think we've established that Montana was a more efficient passer (which is odd, because Brady is known more for his efficiency than his yards or TDs).

Now lets look at yards per attempt.
Montana:
6.57
7.30
7.55
7.59
8.40
7.39

Brady:
6.88
6.26
6.86
7.78
7.75
6.83

Again, advantage Montana. He only had less that 7 ypa once, compared to Brady's 4 times.

I never said Tom Brady was better then Joe Montana. Just saying his stats compared thats all. I have never stated Tom Brady was the best ever and said he wouldn't be in my top five. All I said I thought he was a great QB. Plus only one of those years did Joe average a full yard more per attempt. The rest of years they are close in comparison. Again I'm not stating Brady is better.

SteelerFan87
01-20-2007, 08:29 PM
Ok, but the point of this thread, and my whole arguement, is that people (not saying you) talk about Brady as if he's the best ever. The media worships him, and drools over his accomplishments as if he's Montana's or Elway's or Marino's equal. He isn't. Thus, my whole point is that he's vastly overrated.

Black@Gold Forever32
01-20-2007, 08:41 PM
Ok, but the point of this thread, and my whole arguement, is that people (not saying you) talk about Brady as if he's the best ever. The media worships him, and drools over his accomplishments as if he's Montana's or Elway's or Marino's equal. He isn't. Thus, my whole point is that he's vastly overrated.

But I did just offer some answers to your original post in this thread. Then it took off from there. Hey the media worships alot of players. Thats what the media does. Trust me it drives me crazy also.

Hey its fun to debate. There is really no right or wrong answer. Looking at the starting QB's active in the NFL you can't go wrong with a P. Manning, Brady, Brees or McNabb when healthy.

I just tend to favor a guy that has proven to get it done in the clutch like Tom Brady has proven to do.

SteelerFan87
01-20-2007, 08:54 PM
I just tend to favor a guy that has proven to get it done in the clutch like Tom Brady has proven to do.

Ok, and that's your choice. You prefer a guy based on his accomplishments in certain situations. Personally, I prefer a guy who's done great things, regardless of the situation, which is why I think Dan Marino is probably the best quarterback of all time, despite the fact that he doesn't have a ring. Give Marino a few more pieces on his team, and he'd probably have multiple Super Bowls.

Black@Gold Forever32
01-20-2007, 09:30 PM
Ok, and that's your choice. You prefer a guy based on his accomplishments in certain situations. Personally, I prefer a guy who's done great things, regardless of the situation, which is why I think Dan Marino is probably the best quarterback of all time, despite the fact that he doesn't have a ring. Give Marino a few more pieces on his team, and he'd probably have multiple Super Bowls.

I never said Tom Brady was better then Dan Marino. I stated a few posts up that I rated Danny Boy as the 2nd best ever only behind Johnny Unitas.

I don't know where you're going with this? I never stated Tom Brady was the best ever and never claimed him be in the top five best ever.:dunno:

All I have ever stated was Tom Brady was a great QB and the best QB in the "NFL today" not alltime. Thats all.

Steelersfan
01-20-2007, 09:47 PM
Actually you did 32....lol Post #55 you said:


I have never stated Tom Brady was the best ever and said he would be in my top five.

Maybe you typed that wrong and that is where 87 thought you were coming from?

Black@Gold Forever32
01-20-2007, 09:57 PM
Actually you did 32....lol Post #55 you said:



Maybe you typed that wrong and that is where 87 thought you were coming from?

Yes I should have type wouldn't. Thanks for catching that. I'm a dork.:banging:

But my top five QB's of alltime anyway. No Tom Brady.

1. Johnny Unitas
2. Dan Marino
3. Joe Montana
4. John Elway
5. Brett Favre.

House of Steel
01-20-2007, 10:49 PM
No Tom Brady, but yet you have him in your 2 minutes on your top 4 thread??? I am confused here, what are you hiding?

Black@Gold Forever32
01-20-2007, 10:55 PM
No Tom Brady, but yet you have him in your 2 minutes on your top 4 thread??? I am confused here, what are you hiding?

Was the quesion of the top 4 about current players in the NFL then yes I would take Tom over any QB in the QB today for the last two minutes.

When I stated my top five best QB's of alltime its for alltime. I don't know how you can't seperate the two? One is for alltime and the other is for current players. Do you need it spelled out for you?

I'm not hiding anything so get off my back. Jesus ****ing christ.

House of Steel
01-20-2007, 10:59 PM
Don't worry about it, goodness. I was just asking a question. The hiding thing was a joke. I need to stop posting since everyone has it in for me lately.

BlitzburghNation
01-21-2007, 12:03 AM
Of course #1 is our old QB BRADSHAW,,,, 4 SUPERS how can you argue that !
#2 Joe Montana,,,,,,,,,,Again 4 superbowls
#3 John Elway,,,,,,,,,2 Super's
#4 Dan Marino,,,,,,,,No supers,but can't argue his numbers
#5 Brett Farve,,,,,,,,1 super and his numbers are catching Marino's

Far as Brady,Manning and all the other QB's Gotta wait till they're done
with there career before I can Rate them ! I know farve is still playing but he's as good as retired !
I think when Manning's Career is over he'll own all the QB's records ! Maybe without even winning a Super just like Marino! There's my :2cents: worth