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SteelDad
08-23-2010, 10:34 AM
Interseting take on Hines making the Hall of Fame by SI's Peter King.

Here's the link (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/peter_king/08/22/mmqb/2.html).

K Train
08-23-2010, 10:39 AM
lol at this again....just cause his stats would make a great case for canton back in the 70s doesnt mean they do now....his stats are put to shame but a dozen WRs in this era, some of which are already waiting to get in the hall.

ive said it before and ill say it again...there is no. way. in. hell. ward sniffs the hall of fame, his case wont make for an interesting discussion by the 44 voters at all

DanRooney
08-23-2010, 11:26 AM
I think you're absolutely wrong on this one KTrain. One of the first times I disagree with you. His numbers actually make a pretty good case across the board except for YPC which is typical in a possession receiver. Yes there are plenty receivers in this era that have more flashier stats but he did not have the luxury of having a quarterback in his prime and playing in a passing offense. Despite of this he still has a respectable 11,000 career yards and 78 TDs.

I also think you're underestimating the significance of having a championship next to your name. He has two and is an MVP of one of them. I believe old timers like Stallworth and Swann went in solely because of this. His intangibles that aren't measured by stats will also be thrown into the conversation. He's definitely not a first ballot, but having a backup RB and a guard as the only two players to get in on a two-time SB team will be criminal.

Moondog
08-23-2010, 12:05 PM
+ Hines is an all around football player known for his punishing blocks...very few receivers have been so physical to the point where opposing defensive players were crying. He has that identity plus championships just like Swann had the "acrobatic catch highlight reel identity" plus championships. I believe there is more to it than just stats. Hey but what do I know, I'm biased.

K Train
08-23-2010, 12:24 PM
yeah incredibly biased. hines is a good blocker and gets the exposure as a blocker because thats what he is best at, hes certainly not the first WR to throw a nice block but he gets reconized as a blocking WR because he isnt a deep threat, or a terror after the catch, nor does he strike fear into the hearts of d coordinators.

Hes gonna be retiring in a class that includes TO (wow hey look at that an excellent blocker as well), randy moss, marvin harrison with tim brown, chris carter and andre reed all waiting (who were among the best at their position in their careers)

Never not even once would you have considered hines ward a top 5 WR in the league, all of which the others i mentioned above have been (and even THE best in some years). My point is the hall of fame is for the best of the best, not just the good or the consistant. If hines ward is hall worth, steve smith must be a lock (great blocker, was arguably the best WR in football for 2 years, AND did it without any help at the other WR spot and mediocre QB play)

hines ward might be the best steelers WR but thats gonna be by default for some reasons....longevity, and being the only real option in the run heavy bill cowher offense for a long time. you could put any elite WR in hines wards role and he would have wayyyy better numbers. hes good, will go down as a great steeler but i love when a steelers fan throws out the argument how he revolutionized the WR position by throwing a few block, half of which were cheap shots. saying he revolutionized it is way wrong, thats an espn induced opinion.

great slot WRs that block well dont make the hall, so neither will hines ward

LatrobePA
08-23-2010, 12:41 PM
He won't make it...

K Train
08-23-2010, 12:47 PM
He won't make it...

lol basically what i said in 2 essays above

LatrobePA
08-23-2010, 01:07 PM
lol basically what i said in 2 essays above

Hines is a Steelers favorite but that won't get him in...

harpo
08-23-2010, 02:55 PM
He will get in. Maybe not on the first ballot, but he will definitely get in.

Layin the wood
08-23-2010, 02:55 PM
If the Steelers end up going to another Super Bowl and win it and Hines is named MVP,he will get into the HOF. Everyone made some great points in the posts before but the one thing that will seperate Hines from the rest is he was on Super Bowl winning teams. Andre Reed,Cris Carter and Tim Brown made a lot of catches but not in big games. Receptions and yards do not make you a lock to make the HOF. In the NFL today there are too many WR's who have good stats and the voting committee will look at other aspects to decide who gets in. SB wins,Character and Community Service is also important :imho:

DanRooney
08-23-2010, 03:02 PM
It's going to be very odd down the road when you talk about the Steelers 2005 and 2008 SB winning teams when only a guard and a backup runningback at the time is a lock to make the HOF. If Hines doesn't make it because he's not a media favorite, expect a lot of this at the end of their careers:

-"Troy doesn't get in because he's always injured and doesn't have enough INTs. Reed is better!"
-"Anyone in a 3-4 defensive front doesn't get in because he doesn't he doesn't have enough sacks"
-"Roethlisberger doesn't get in because he is a game manager...err...he only won because of the Bus...err...he's never thrown for more than 17 TDs...****...he can't post good stats without that great defense...damnit...he's a rapist hehehehe i got you guys this time."

While I'm like:

http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/7169/iseewhatyoudidthere.jpg (http://img843.imageshack.us/i/iseewhatyoudidthere.jpg/)

steelcitysfinestXL
08-23-2010, 05:43 PM
For all the people saying... "he gets in, just not first ballot" are thinking of Hines and ONLY Hines. Yes i think he is hall worthy for his achievements and championships... when you look at the numbers, he cant compare with the guys he's potentially gonna retire with. THEN the next wave SHAMES Hines' stats... and so on and so fourth.

K is right, Hines is a HOF'er if he retired circa 1994. Maybe his 2-3 rings (hopefully) and SB-MVP combined with "solid" numbers get him there. And ill be happy if they do! I just wouldnt bet on it!

K Train
08-23-2010, 07:23 PM
It's going to be very odd down the road when you talk about the Steelers 2005 and 2008 SB winning teams when only a guard and a backup runningback at the time is a lock to make the HOF. If Hines doesn't make it because he's not a media favorite, expect a lot of this at the end of their careers:

-"Troy doesn't get in because he's always injured and doesn't have enough INTs. Reed is better!"
-"Anyone in a 3-4 defensive front doesn't get in because he doesn't he doesn't have enough sacks"
-"Roethlisberger doesn't get in because he is a game manager...err...he only won because of the Bus...err...he's never thrown for more than 17 TDs...****...he can't post good stats without that great defense...damnit...he's a rapist hehehehe i got you guys this time."

While I'm like:


honestly ben and troy are gonna make better cases than ward, possibly aaron smith but not for a while and richard seymour would certainly get the nod over him as a 5 tech.

ben wins one more SB and they wont be able to tell him no, troy is so overrated by the entire media with his splash plays that he will get in on pro bowl credentials, bettis is the all time great as a big RB, hes a rare breed of RB and will get in.

how many hall of famers are on the patriots winning teams? tom brady, richard seymour, and teddy bruschi only cause he came back from a hole in his heart like hes a hero? they had some great players on those teams along with them but multiple superbowl winning teams doesnt automatically make for a roster full of hall of famers.


so having a guard and a RB be pretty much locks leaves us pretty much on par with most teams that werent the 70s steelers and the 90s cowboys...if they get one more in the next few years im sure you can add a QB, SS and a WR to that list

darnik44
08-23-2010, 09:25 PM
lol at this again....just cause his stats would make a great case for canton back in the 70s doesnt mean they do now....his stats are put to shame but a dozen WRs in this era, some of which are already waiting to get in the hall.

ive said it before and ill say it again...there is no. way. in. hell. ward sniffs the hall of fame, his case wont make for an interesting discussion by the 44 voters at all

You are out in left field in regards to what get's a player in the HOF. He's almost a lock. Isn't Chris Carter enough evidence that stats alone don't get you in? The HOF is for great players/coaches/ect who influenced the game. Ward fits that criteria.

K Train
08-23-2010, 11:21 PM
hes so far from a lock

Dobre Shunka
08-24-2010, 02:01 AM
Ward goes into the Hall.

jnes1216
08-24-2010, 02:16 AM
The voting for the hall is subjective and media driven. The panel is made up of a media representative from each NFL city. Opinion-based decisions are to be expected. But I don't think you can put a threshold on what a player has to achieve statistically to be a strong candidate either. That would be too easy. You can't say if he achieves this number of catches, etc, he's in the hall. I don't believe you can compare stats to players from other eras. The game and athletes change too much. Swann/Stallworth and Ward comparisons are fruitless.
The HOF voting is a mystery, plain and simple. Do the players pass the "gut feeling" check? I thought Shannon Sharpe would be a first ballot lock. It's taken Dick LeBeau how many years? Coaching aside, he had a ton of picks for old time football.
I don't know if Hines gets in or not, but I would vote for a guy that leads his team in receptions 11 straight years and kills it blocking for his rb's. Dirty? I was taught about crackback blocks in high school. There's a chin strap for a reason.

steelcitysfinestXL
08-24-2010, 08:46 AM
Dirty? I was taught about crackback blocks in high school. There's a chin strap for a reason.

THAT... i agree with whole-heartedly! I remember the the block by Warren Sapp that ended that dudes career. Everyone was up in arms... because of the result. If that guy gets up a lil woozy and comes ack the next week, then it was a good block never talked about after SC airs it the next day! But bbecause the guy unfortunately lost his career Sapp is labled as a dirty player? BULLSHIT... like you said, you're taught in highschool a few basic fundamentals about every time you step on a fotball field:

1. NEVER Walk/Jog on a football field.
2. Keep your head up when you make tackles (ahem... Ryan, Troy)
3. Play through the whistle.
4. Always keep your head on a "swivel"

The majority of guys who were hurt/injured by blocks didnt follow one or more of these basic football rules. Hines has been targeted for about that last 8-10 years for GREAT blocks he has made (still doesnt get him into the HOF :lol:) and he has never taken a hit he didnt get up from (minus the SF games where he bit through his own tongue :eek1:) Because he follows the basic football rules stated above!!!!

BlitzburghRockCity
08-24-2010, 09:02 AM
I would love to see Ward in the HoF, and while I don't think he'll be a first ballot candidate I do think he'll get in within a few years. He'll never have the numbers that other WR's he's playing with now do, but he's got enough to get him in based on other factors. He took the WR position and turned it into a blocking position too, he proved you can be tough as a WR and still make the finesse TD catch or drop your toes on the sidelines. He's got 4 prow bowls and a super bowl MVP to his resume, every significant Steeler receiving record, the list goes on.

I think he deserves serious consideration...

harpo
08-24-2010, 09:17 AM
The voting for the hall is subjective and media driven. The panel is made up of a media representative from each NFL city. Opinion-based decisions are to be expected. But I don't think you can put a threshold on what a player has to achieve statistically to be a strong candidate either. That would be too easy. You can't say if he achieves this number of catches, etc, he's in the hall. I don't believe you can compare stats to players from other eras. The game and athletes change too much. Swann/Stallworth and Ward comparisons are fruitless.
The HOF voting is a mystery, plain and simple. Do the players pass the "gut feeling" check? I thought Shannon Sharpe would be a first ballot lock. It's taken Dick LeBeau how many years? Coaching aside, he had a ton of picks for old time football.
I don't know if Hines gets in or not, but I would vote for a guy that leads his team in receptions 11 straight years and kills it blocking for his rb's. Dirty? I was taught about crackback blocks in high school. There's a chin strap for a reason.


This....:plus1:

Ward will get in....eventually. :tt02:

K Train
08-24-2010, 09:32 AM
[/B]

THAT... i agree with whole-heartedly! I remember the the block by Warren Sapp that ended that dudes career. Everyone was up in arms... because of the result. If that guy gets up a lil woozy and comes ack the next week, then it was a good block never talked about after SC airs it the next day! But bbecause the guy unfortunately lost his career Sapp is labled as a dirty player? BULLSHIT... like you said, you're taught in highschool a few basic fundamentals about every time you step on a fotball field:

1. NEVER Walk/Jog on a football field.
2. Keep your head up when you make tackles (ahem... Ryan, Troy)
3. Play through the whistle.
4. Always keep your head on a "swivel"

The majority of guys who were hurt/injured by blocks didnt follow one or more of these basic football rules. Hines has been targeted for about that last 8-10 years for GREAT blocks he has made (still doesnt get him into the HOF :lol:) and he has never taken a hit he didnt get up from (minus the SF games where he bit through his own tongue :eek1:) Because he follows the basic football rules stated above!!!!

i absolutely guarantee that if it was a raven or bengal WR that destroyed our 9th overall rookie OLB or all pro FS for the season because of a blindside block you all were throw a hissy fit. theres no doubt in my mind. just because wards hits arent always "illegal" (some are) doesnt mean they are clean.

i love that about him, but its true, and yet everyone gets so defensive when the word dirty is thrown around with hines "gotta keep your head on a swivel" lmao


hines ward hall of fame threads take homerism to a level that makes me uncomfortable

steelcitysfinestXL
08-24-2010, 09:40 AM
i absolutely guarantee that if it was a raven or bengal WR that destroyed our 9th overall rookie OLB or all pro FS for the season because of a blindside block you all were throw a hissy fit. theres no doubt in my mind. just because wards hits arent always "illegal" (some are) doesnt mean they are clean.

i love that about him, but its true, and yet everyone gets so defensive when the word dirty is thrown around with hines "gotta keep your head on a swivel" lmao

The part in BOLD... true story! Didnt Randy Moss LEVEL someone on our D three years ago when we shat the bed in NE (the Ant Smith not-so "Guarantee" game)? I get your point, that happens alot in Hockey around here too... "Ovechkin is the dirtiest player in the world... Matt Cooke just plays hard"! :imho: Big hits/blocks are the BEST thing in football... I like all good block and big hits aslong as they are legal, Whether its the steelers or another team!

K Train
08-24-2010, 09:58 AM
i love huge crushing blows, even if they are cheap or excessive, its quality entertainment no matter how morbid that sounds. i dont want to see a steeler get hit so hard that 106 players and both coaching staffs have to come on the field and pray, but i dont mind if thats willis mcgahee laying there. point is if that was joey porter that had his jaw broken and was out for the year because of a blindside block from chad johnson there would be a bounty on his head but since it was ward it just means rivers should have "kept his head on a swivel" is the cliche way everyone puts it

the ovechkin example is perfect too

anyway blocking isnt a big factor in getting in for a WR, stats and rings are. ward has the rings but not the flashy numbers. he has an uphill battle, id be stunned if he was ever even in serious contention without at LEAST one more ring and over 100 total TDs (which is probably about 3 more seasons and really i dont want him on the steelers as an old man like that)

if blocking gets you in the hall for a WR im drafting julio jones next year, the single most dominating blocking WR football has ever seen imo

Layin the wood
08-24-2010, 10:48 AM
Crushing hits ( which i love ) are just part of the game. If players dont like it there's always Barber College!!!

SteelDad
08-24-2010, 10:50 AM
Glad I could stir the pot again....

I will be very surprised if he doesn't get in. Many of you are comparing him to guys like C.Carter, Moss and Owens. Zero championships I believe and the HoF loves winners. If you want to talk stats, I think King's comparison to Michael Irvin is the best example of why he gets in. Both have multiple titles, both are/were vocal team leaders, Hines has more catches, HW a much better blocker and was not a pain the a$$ off the field. White House anyone? First ballot or not, I believe he gets in.

harpo
08-24-2010, 11:20 AM
Glad I could stir the pot again....

I will be very surprised if he doesn't get in. Many of you are comparing him to guys like C.Carter, Moss and Owens. Zero championships I believe and the HoF loves winners. If you want to talk stats, I think King's comparison to Michael Irvin is the best example of why he gets in. Both have multiple titles, both are/were vocal team leaders, Hines has more catches, HW a much better blocker and was not a pain the a$$ off the field. White House anyone? First ballot or not, I believe he gets in.

I totally agree. As of right now, I think that there are about 7 (maybe 8) WRs who gets in before Ward. But, with the politics surrounding the voting process, it could be less or perhaps more.

WRs not yet in the HOF:

Isaac Bruce
Terrell Owens
Tim Brown
Marvin Harrison
Randy Moss
Cris Carter
Henry Ellard
Torry Holt
Andre Reed
Irving Fryar
Jimmy Smith
Muhsin Muhammad
Rod Smith
Keenan McCardell
Derrick Mason
Hines Ward

Out all the WRs on this list, 5 have SB rings and only 2 have won multiple Super Bowls (Ward and R. Smith). I think Ward has a good case "for" him to get in. Regardless, if he reaches 1000 catches and 12000 yards (which I think he will), he's in. Perhaps not 1st ballot, but he's definitely in.

K Train
08-24-2010, 02:41 PM
if theres a "winner" on our team that gets in its roethlisberger, ward was not a winner until roethlisberger came around...thats a cute idea, but a skewed theory. plenty of players have rings and are not that good....hell our offensive linemen have 1 or 2 rings they are not good at all, the hall of fame isnt gonna love them because they have jewerly.

meanwhile walter jones and willie roaf have no rings and will easily be first ballot guys


go around and ask non steeler fans if ward has hall of fame credentials...you will find that all of you that will be "very surprised" or "shocked" when he never is seriously discussed are in a severe minority living in a world of homerism

ejsteeler
08-24-2010, 03:02 PM
Love to see him in, think he's earned it, but do not think it will happen. I'll just wait to be pleasantly surprised if he does.

harpo
08-24-2010, 04:26 PM
if theres a "winner" on our team that gets in its roethlisberger, ward was not a winner until roethlisberger came around...thats a cute idea, but a skewed theory. plenty of players have rings and are not that good....hell our offensive linemen have 1 or 2 rings they are not good at all, the hall of fame isnt gonna love them because they have jewerly.

meanwhile walter jones and willie roaf have no rings and will easily be first ballot guys


go around and ask non steeler fans if ward has hall of fame credentials...you will find that all of you that will be "very surprised" or "shocked" when he never is seriously discussed are in a severe minority living in a world of homerism

You bring up good points but neither Ben nor any of our offensive linemen has a Super Bowl MVP on his resume. Ben didn't exactly put on a "Steve Young" type of performance in Super Bowl XL. Plenty of players have rings, but not many of them earned the title of MVP. Ward has that honor and that puts him in distinctive and elite company.

I know plenty of non-Steeler fans who hate Hines Ward; they say he's a dirty player, etc. However, they will admit that he's HOF worthy, not 1st ballot, but should get in eventually.

K Train
08-24-2010, 04:45 PM
You bring up good points but neither Ben nor any of our offensive linemen has a Super Bowl MVP on his resume. Ben didn't exactly put on a "Steve Young" type of performance in Super Bowl XL. Plenty of players have rings, but not many of them earned the title of MVP. Ward has that honor and that puts him in distinctive and elite company.

I know plenty of non-Steeler fans who hate Hines Ward; they say he's a dirty player, etc. However, they will admit that he's HOF worthy, not 1st ballot, but should get in eventually.

yeah but ward didnt exactly take the game over...he caught a pass from randel el and had one good catch on third and really long (from ben)....deion branch won a superbowl MVP should he go to the hall? some players have good games in the superbowl for various reasons and wards wasnt anything earth shattering, you could have easily given it to el or parker who both made some game changing plays, dont let that MVP and ring hide the fact that ward has been pretty average throughout his career....pretty clutch and very tough, but average nonetheless

harpo
08-24-2010, 05:01 PM
yeah but ward didnt exactly take the game over...he caught a pass from randel el and had one good catch on third and really long (from ben)....deion branch won a superbowl MVP should he go to the hall? some players have good games in the superbowl for various reasons and wards wasnt anything earth shattering, you could have easily given it to el or parker who both made some game changing plays, dont let that MVP and ring hide the fact that ward has been pretty average throughout his career....pretty clutch and very tough, but average nonetheless

He caught a pass that pretty much finalized the outcome of the game. Whether he took the game over or not is irrevelent. There were not any 'earth shattering' performances in that game. Parker's long run was the most exciting, but Ward's numbers were better than anyone else's.

At the end of the day, the MVP will help him moreso than hurt him. Average? I disagree. But you've opened up a another can of worms because I can name a ton of "average" players in the hall.

K Train
08-24-2010, 05:06 PM
but im saying his SB MVP was in a game that was a poor performance by most of the team and many people believe the steelers shouldnt have, thats not gonna help him. the ring and the MVP wont hurt him, but i dont think its enough to automatically put him over the top.

and there are average players, WR is another breed though the hall hates WRs

MattyVfromCT
08-24-2010, 05:55 PM
i would agree with ktrain but one thing that really strikes me is that it's peter king of all people making the case for hines as a hall of famer. peter king is ridiculously anti-steeler and has made it known in the past when it came time for hall of fame voting. this is the guy who infamously said, when in regards to whether or not he would vote for lynn swann to make the hall, "i have a hard time putting 19 steelers in the hall". if somebody as anti-steeler as king is making a case for ward, it leaves some hope, but you also have to remember there are many other voters with that same anti-steeler standpoint, hence why guys like l.c. greenwood and donnie shell aren't in the hall. and let's also not forget how long it took swann and stallworth to finally get in as well as how long it's taking dermontti dawson to get in. i'd love to see ward get in, seeing as he's my favorite current steeler but i think even if he does get inducted, it won't be until many, many years after his first year of eligibility, just like swann and stallworth waited. or if he gets in on the veterans committee

harpo
08-24-2010, 06:07 PM
but im saying his SB MVP was in a game that was a poor performance by most of the team and many people believe the steelers shouldnt have, thats not gonna help him. the ring and the MVP wont hurt him, but i dont think its enough to automatically put him over the top.

and there are average players, WR is another breed though the hall hates WRs

Yeah, I think we both agree that their were poor performances in that SB but someone had to be MVP, right?

Now don't get me wrong, that performance alone won't get him over the top. As I said in a earlier post, if he gets 1000 catches and 12000+ yards, he'll get in. Not 1st ballot, but he'll eventually get in.

BTW....I also agree with you that the HOF hates WRs. That's one of the reasons why I think that the players and coaches should decide who gets in (vote) because they KNOW firsthand, better than a bunch of biased, non-athletic sportswriters, many who've never even played pee-wee football, what it takes to make it in the league, play at a high level and just how "good" a player (or coach) really is.

andyg1984
08-24-2010, 06:29 PM
at the end of the day tho don't you have to at one point in your career have to be considered one of the top 5 WR's ? i love hines, but i am not sure he ever was one of the best ..

i think i heard goodell say something like this about why graham was not in the hall when asked by packer fans ... "The hall of fame is for the greats. That is what makes it so great - the fact that outstanding players like Jerry Kramer do not get in is what makes the hall so great".

Now, I am not sure if i have it word for word, but i think the same can be said of hines .. that is what makes the hall so great .. is that people like hines do not make it in as much as we love them ..

harpo
08-24-2010, 07:20 PM
at the end of the day tho don't you have to at one point in your career have to be considered one of the top 5 WR's ? i love hines, but i am not sure he ever was one of the best ..

i think i heard goodell say something like this about why graham was not in the hall when asked by packer fans ... "The hall of fame is for the greats. That is what makes it so great - the fact that outstanding players like Jerry Kramer do not get in is what makes the hall so great".

Now, I am not sure if i have it word for word, but i think the same can be said of hines .. that is what makes the hall so great .. is that people like hines do not make it in as much as we love them ..

I'm not sure if you have to be considered at least once a top 5 WR (or player at any position for that matter) in order to be eligible for the HOF. I think that's someone's personal requirement.

But let's entertain that notion for a minute:

In 2002, Hines Ward was 2nd in receptions (112), 4th in receving yards (1329), 2nd in TDs (12). In 2002, he was 5th in receptions (95), 9th in yards (1163) and 4th in TDs (10). Those are 2 seasons where one could make a case that Ward was a top 5 WR. Not saying that makes a difference, but I think it's interesting to know.

The HOF is made up of plenty players that were not so great:

1. Dave Casper
2. Lynn Swann
3. John Stallworth
4. Larry Csonka
5. Rayfield Wright
6. Roger Wehrli
7. Andre Tippett
8. Paul Hornung
9. Dan Hampton
10. Bob Griese
11. Harry Carson
12. Michael Irvin
13. John Riggins
14. Joe Namath


If these players got in the HOF, especially Joe Namath, why not Ward? :imho:

K Train
08-24-2010, 07:36 PM
I'm not sure if you have to be considered at least once a top 5 WR (or player at any position for that matter) in order to be eligible for the HOF. I think that's someone's personal requirement.

But let's entertain that notion for a minute:

In 2002, Hines Ward was 2nd in receptions (112), 4th in receving yards (1329), 2nd in TDs (12). In 2002, he was 5th in receptions (95), 9th in yards (1163) and 4th in TDs (10). Those are 2 seasons where one could make a case that Ward was a top 5 WR. Not saying that makes a difference, but I think it's interesting to know.

The HOF is made up of plenty players that were not so great:

1. Dave Casper
2. Lynn Swann
3. John Stallworth
4. Larry Csonka
5. Rayfield Wright
6. Roger Wehrli
7. Andre Tippett
8. Paul Hornung
9. Dan Hampton
10. Bob Griese
11. Harry Carson
12. Michael Irvin
13. John Riggins
14. Joe Namath


If these players got in the HOF, especially Joe Namath, why not Ward? :imho:
i swear that im not just attacking you and shooting down your points but i DO see what your saying, im saying that those #s wont mean anything because he didnt do tham consistently over his career...now if he was getting upwards of 120 catches and 1400 yards a year and 12-14 TDs his whole career hed be right up there with the elite numbers but really he did alot of 800 yard and 8 TD season which by no means is "bad" but its not gonna punch you in the face come voting time and are pretty average slot receiver numbers

now as far as the names you listed they would all probably suck *** in todays league...i have a seriously strong opinion that players that played in the 70s could absolutely not play in todays league BUT they were all among the best of their era, and even if they werent great by todays standards you would probably have a hard time finding players that played in their time that were better than those are not in the hall themselves. ward comparatively might compare to those guys on your list who arent the best ever but still substantially great for their era, however ward plays in a time where there alot of WRs better than him that could be on that list as well and in an era that the hall hates WRs.

i think the georgia HOF and Steelers HOF is gonna be the peak for ward, and i mean **** thats not a bad career by any means

and joe namath was a QB, and big time back in the day

harpo
08-24-2010, 08:41 PM
i swear that im not just attacking you and shooting down your points but i DO see what your saying, im saying that those #s wont mean anything because he didnt do tham consistently over his career...now if he was getting upwards of 120 catches and 1400 yards a year and 12-14 TDs his whole career hed be right up there with the elite numbers but really he did alot of 800 yard and 8 TD season which by no means is "bad" but its not gonna punch you in the face come voting time and are pretty average slot receiver numbers

now as far as the names you listed they would all probably suck *** in todays league...i have a seriously strong opinion that players that played in the 70s could absolutely not play in todays league BUT they were all among the best of their era, and even if they werent great by todays standards you would probably have a hard time finding players that played in their time that were better than those are not in the hall themselves. ward comparatively might compare to those guys on your list who arent the best ever but still substantially great for their era, however ward plays in a time where there alot of WRs better than him that could be on that list as well and in an era that the hall hates WRs.

i think the georgia HOF and Steelers HOF is gonna be the peak for ward, and i mean **** thats not a bad career by any means

and joe namath was a QB, and big time back in the day

It's cool, I know you're not attacking me. It's just healthy convo. :yellowthumb:

Trust me when I tell you that I understand what you're saying and I agree that if Ward put up those type of numbers consistently over the duration of his career, he'd be a 'shoe in'. No argument from me regarding that.

However, I think that his final numbers (if he gets over 1000 catches, 12,000 yds and 90 TDs) along with at least 2 Super Bowl rings will eventually get him in. I'm not saying it will be 2, 3 or even 5 years after he's retired. It might take him just as long as Dick LeBeau to get in (I hope not)....but eventually, he will get in.


and joe namath was a QB, and big time back in the day

I respectfully disagree. I think Joe made it primarily based on hype and the "guarantee" he made to win SBG III.

Joe Namath's career numbers:

1886 completions
3762 attempts
27663 yards
50.1% (percentage)
173 TDs
220 INTs
62-63-4 Career record as a starter (.481)
65.5 career QB rating.

Broadway Joe averaged 17 picks per year and exceeded 20 on 5 different occasions.

Not exactly HOF type numbers, wouldn't you agree?

K Train
08-24-2010, 08:49 PM
big time as in big time personality, big time ego, big time market, big time guarantee....that wouldnt cut it today, but he was a good QB back in the day. not hall numbers at all, but you wouldnt see someone with lackluster numbers like that as a QB get in today, no way in hell...way too many prolific passers since then

harpo
08-24-2010, 08:52 PM
big time as in big time personality, big time ego, big time market, big time guarantee....that wouldnt cut it today, but he was a good QB back in the day. not hall numbers at all, but you wouldnt see someone with lackluster numbers like that as a QB get in today, no way in hell...way too many prolific passers since then

I agree with everything you said except that Joe was a "good QB". :yellowthumb:

Go 'Lers
08-25-2010, 01:58 AM
He'll be in along with Ben...eventually

steelcitysfinestXL
08-25-2010, 08:21 AM
I agree with everything you said except that Joe was a "good QB". :yellowthumb:

In the spirit of healthy conversation... now you're starting to contradict some of the things that are making a case for Hines getting into the HOF. Joe Willie Namath did ALOT for Football. First and only QB to win a College Championship (Bama) A professional Championship (AFL National Championship Jets) and a World CHampionship (AFL-NFL championship Jets SB-III) The AFL was considered light-years behind the NFL and a joke. Namath Won SB 3 and was MVP. Yeah his numbers (for that era) were average, but he did alot for football. He legitimized a league (AFL)! So if what Hines Ward did for the WR position (i disagree with that by the way) "revolutionized" the position... then Joe Namath is a QB god!

harpo
08-25-2010, 08:46 AM
In the spirit of healthy conversation... now you're starting to contradict some of the things that are making a case for Hines getting into the HOF. Joe Willie Namath did ALOT for Football. First and only QB to win a College Championship (Bama) A professional Championship (AFL National Championship Jets) and a World CHampionship (AFL-NFL championship Jets SB-III) The AFL was considered light-years behind the NFL and a joke. Namath Won SB 3 and was MVP. Yeah his numbers (for that era) were average, but he did alot for football. He legitimized a league (AFL)! So if what Hines Ward did for the WR position (i disagree with that by the way) "revolutionized" the position... then Joe Namath is a QB god!

I never said Joe Namath didn't do a lot for football. I never said Joe didn't deserve his SB MVP. All I said was that he wasn't a "good" QB. I don't see a contradiction.

Also, I never said Hines Ward revolutionized the WR position (perhaps you have me confused with someone else).

steelcitysfinestXL
08-25-2010, 08:56 AM
I never said Joe Namath didn't do a lot for football. I never said Joe didn't deserve his SB MVP. All I said was that he wasn't a "good" QB. I don't see a contradiction.

Also, I never said Hines Ward revolutionized the WR position (perhaps you have me confused with someone else).

"now you're starting to contradict some of the things that are making a case for Hines getting into the HOF."

I know you didnt say "he revolutionized the WR position" but alot of people on here have... and thats bull$hit! AND people on here have said "he's done alot for football"... also a bit far fetched. I was just saying, if you dont think Joe Namath deserves to be in the HOF for all he did for the game... then you're contradicting the other posters trying to make a case for Hines!

harpo
08-25-2010, 09:03 AM
"now you're starting to contradict some of the things that are making a case for Hines getting into the HOF."

I know you didnt say "he revolutionized the WR position" but alot of people on here have... and thats bull$hit! AND people on here have said "he's done alot for football"... also a bit far fetched. I was just saying, if you dont think Joe Namath deserves to be in the HOF for all he did for the game... then you're contradicting the other posters trying to make a case for Hines!

With all due respect, i'm not responsible for the cases others make for Hines being a HOFer and vice-versa. All I can do is make my own case for him.

I really didn't intend for this to turn into a Joe Namath vs. Hines Ward discussion. I was just trying to make a case for #86. :yellowthumb: