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BlacknGold Bleeder
02-13-2009, 10:42 PM
a new form of hating on the STEELERS....

Do juiced-up Steelers teams deserve asterisks?

Mark Kriegel, FOXSports.com


Alex Rodriguez's admission of steroid use has unleashed a new round of debate in yet another fantasy game.

Where to put asterisks?

Which are the corrupted numbers?

Will Rodriguez's eventual tally for hits and home runs warrant the mark of eternal shame?

Will Barry Bonds' 762, or 73?

How about 354, Roger Clemens' career win total?

Or maybe, 6?

That's the number I propose for consideration. If it doesn't sound like a baseball number, that's because it isn't. Still, if you want baseball a game that quantifies itself for posterity to acknowledge its tainted records, then football should have to do the same, no?

I have recently returned from the Super Bowl, which was not merely thrilling, but as you've no doubt been assured, historic. In beating the Arizona Cardinals, the Pittsburgh Steelers became the first NFL franchise to win six Super Bowls. Such success has been attributed to great players, great coaches and John Facenda's voice, please to the fair and forward-thinking House of Rooney.

But what about steroids? Do the Steelers reach six without steroids?

They won four titles in the Seventies. But those teams the offensive linemen, in particular had a notorious, and not undeserved, reputation for abusing performance-enhancing drugs.

Let's not deign to indulge the standard excuse that steroids were legal back then. Winked at, perhaps. But legal, definitely not. The NFL didn't have a full-blown steroid policy by which I mean one with required testing and proscribed punishments until 1989, a full 15 years before major league baseball. But as is the case in baseball, misuse of prescription drugs was always prohibited.

As it pertained to illicit performance-enhancing drugs, the NFL of the '70s was not unlike the Major Leagues of the '90s. Juicing may have been accepted in certain precincts of certain locker rooms, but just the same, juicers had good reason to keep their business hidden for fear of stigma and sanction.

"They knew what they were doing," said Kim Wood, who from 1975 to 2001 was the strength and conditioning coach for the Steelers divisional rival, the Cincinnati Bengals. "They knew they were cheating."

In the case of the old Steelers, the anecdotal evidence is as damning as it is overwhelming. Steve Courson, a Steelers lineman from '78 to '83, issued his well-known confession in a magazine article and later, an autobiography entitled "False Glory: Steelers and Steroids." "To say that anabolic steroids didn't play a role in the Steelers' success would be a falsehood," said Courson, who developed heart problems after his retirement.

Then there's Hall of Fame center Mike Webster dead of heart failure at 50 who compensated for a lack of natural size by adding artificial size. The brother of linebacker Steve Furness 49 when his heart gave out also suspected that steroids played a role in the death. Even a running back like Rocky Bleier admitted to ESPN that steroids were part of his offseason training regimen.

A few years ago, Jim Haslett had this to say on the subject of steroids and the NFL: "It started, really, in Pittsburgh. They got an advantage on a lot of football teams. They were so much stronger (in the) '70s, late '70s, early '80s. They're the ones who kind of started it."

While Haslett's statement incurred the wrath of some in the Pittsburgh organization, the former linebacker was merely reiterating what so many in the business already thought about those Steeler teams.

"The Steelers in the '70s were one of the most influential teams on the game of football, especially the weight training part," says Wood. "It was the success of that team that had to do with the phenomenon being really, really accepted for use by football players."

Describing the spread of steroid use from high schools to the NFL, he said: "it wasn't a trickle down. It was a waterfall."

Wood qualifies as an old school moralist on the subject. "It's a drug that appeals to insecure men," he says. "The first thing you have to do is fess up to yourself, that you don't have enough of the stuff that makes a man."

Was it fair, I asked, for his team to be regularly paired against a juiced-up rival?

"How did I feel personally? I was pissed off. It put tremendous pressure on me."

He could hear the whispers, why don't our guys get gacked up like the Steelers? Fortunately, he says, he had strong support coming from the top of the organization, especially from owner Paul Brown, that insulated him from that pressure. "I refused to be an enabler for weak people," says Wood, who dismisses my asterisk theory.

There is no denying the greatness of those Pittsburgh teams, he says. What's more, it didn't begin with the offensive line. Rather, it began with the defense and players like linebacker Jack Ham, whom he calls a friend. The legacies of guys like Ham and the great defensive back Mel Blount, Wood says, should not be questioned for the misdeeds of the weaklings.

But that's not why he considers my proposed asterisk laughable. Wood knows the numbers of premature deaths among those Steeler alums. The South Florida Sun-Sentinel columnist Dave Hyde recently noted that, since 1996, 13 veterans of those championship teams died before the age 60. Of the 13, seven were heart attacks. (Courson, it's worth mentioning, died when a tree fell on him).

Performance-enhancing substances do not qualify as a cause on anyone's death certificate. I'm not qualified to make a scientific case. But I know that football players are like professional wrestlers. No one really cares certainly not enough that they die young. After all, we don't associate them with any records. We can't represent their careers as statistical sagas.

Still, now you wonder what fate awaits the major leagues' first generation of juicers.

"That's the real perniciousness here," says Wood. "Guys are talking about the stats being (messed) up?

"This isn't a scandal about statistics or asterisk. This is a public health scandal."

Stairwayto7
02-13-2009, 10:49 PM
Stupid Question! Steroids were in every gym in the 70`s, they were taking them like they were in PEZ dispenser. Let it go! Nothing against you BGB, just against the writer

Stairwayto7
02-14-2009, 08:34 AM
Nobody else??

Thomas_43
02-14-2009, 10:08 AM
I Agree, I LOVVVVVE how much Steeler Hating goes on. It's amazing. People need to grow the F**k up and just accept that we are who we are.

yinzer
02-14-2009, 10:10 AM
4 super bowls in the 70's = steroid irrelevance

DIESELMAN
02-14-2009, 10:17 AM
Stupid Question! Steroids were in every gym in the 70`s, they were taking them like they were in PEZ dispenser. Let it go!
Exactly!! The NFL wasn't banning them back then either......

Stairwayto7
02-14-2009, 10:27 AM
Were we the only team with access to the roids?? Lyle Alzado comes to mind.

Silverback 92
02-14-2009, 11:59 AM
I dont think they (roids) were illegal back then were they ? So how can that make it wrong if it wasnt against NFL policy or any other law

Stairwayto7
02-14-2009, 12:01 PM
Yes and know! There were only a few names back in the day, of roids, Deca being the most popular. Some were illegal, and most became illegal eventually. But the were not tested nor banned in the NFL, at the time.

TEEMONT
02-14-2009, 12:02 PM
No one on this site will say yes. According to Steeler fans, only other teams cheat.

Iron City South
02-14-2009, 12:07 PM
No one on this site will say yes. According to Steeler fans, only other teams cheat.

WRONG. Most people realize that you must first define what "cheating" actually is before you exercise your judgement on the subject.

To me, "cheating" is doing something illegal or conducting in actions or behaviors that is against the rules that are established at the time.

Steroids in the NFL back in the 70's were about as illegal as Cotton Candy is at Kennywood. :yesnod:

If you want to fault the Steelers for anything, it's bad judgement; knowing they would have long term health implications, yet some decided to use them anyhow in effort to achieve "excellence" in their own class of craft.

To me, these guys were the ultimate warriors. They had an idea of the risks, yet made the decision to throw all caution to the wind because of their intense desire to succeed.

Stairwayto7
02-14-2009, 12:15 PM
No one on this site will say yes. According to Steeler fans, only other teams cheat.

Why? We cannot go back and test players from the raiders, cowboys, vikes, dolphins or any other SuperBowl teams, so why? Its a worthless arguement. ProHormones were legal then, not now, is that cheating? Today, it may be cheating, although Merriman was suspended last season for roids, and won the MVP the same year???? What did the NFL think that his body was no longer roid enhanced??? The roid issue from the seventies is dead. I bet Hank Aaron tried them!

TEEMONT
02-14-2009, 12:19 PM
WRONG. Most people realize that you must first define what "cheating" actually is before you exercise your judgement on the subject.

To me, "cheating" is doing something illegal or conducting in actions or behaviors that is against the rules that are established at the time.

Steroids in the NFL back in the 70's were about as illegal as Cotton Candy is at Kennywood. :yesnod:

If you want to fault the Steelers for anything, it's bad judgement; knowing they would have long term health implications, yet some decided to use them anyhow in effort to achieve "excellence" in their own class of craft.

To me, these guys were the ultimate warriors. They had an idea of the risks, yet made the decision to throw all caution to the wind because of their intense desire to succeed.

thats b/c you have a flawed idea of what the word warrior stands for.

LarryNJ
02-14-2009, 12:54 PM
To me it's a non issue. I'm really getting tired of all this roid talk anyhow. Those who hate the Steelers always will and we will always love them. There's no doubt that they were in every locker room in the 70's. In fact they were in every neighborhood gym back than.

As for Barry Bonds ... I thought he was an A-hole in the late 80's before he was juiced and I still think he is.

BlitzburghRockCity
02-14-2009, 01:13 PM
Exactly!! The NFL wasn't banning them back then either......


Exactly, thank you! Every team in the NFL was using them because it wasn't illegal to do so. Was it the right thing to do with a sports player in general to use roids, no of course not but if it wasn't illegal then there's nothing anybody can say about it.

Damn people and their steroids talk just **** me off, Im so sick of hearing about with baseball I just want to :barf:

BlackGold4vr
02-14-2009, 01:29 PM
thats b/c you have a flawed idea of what the word warrior stands for.


You have an antiquated idea of war. Armies no longer line up in rank and file and march into enemy fire. Aerial combat no longer includes a face-off before engaging in the fight. If a fighter pilot can sneak up on his enemy and take a shot without being seen than we call that technical superiority. 200 years ago sneaking up on your enemy and shooting him in the back would have been considered cowardly. If a sniper can take out a bad guy at 1000 yards from a concealed position we call that skill. When we drop GPS guided bombs from altitudes so high that the people on the ground never even heard the aircraft fly over, what is that? Is that cowardly? No! Is it cheating to kill the enemy before he even realizes you are there? This isn't the 15th century and these guys are not knights who wait for a signal before engaging in battle.

Those guys and many others on teams throughout the league did the roids to gain an edge. It was not illegal. It is well documented that roids were widely used throughout the league in the 70's. Was Lyle Azado a Steeler? Didn't think so.

Why are Americans so hypocritical of some sports but not others?

We get mad when baseball or football players do roids but readily accept it as part of the sport in pro wrestling or bodybuilding. People use the role model crutch to justify persecuting athletes in one sport but other sports get a pass. Why? If we are going to micromanage gotta go all the way and do it in EVERY sport! Otherwise, back off, buy your ticket and enjoy the show! :nono:

TEEMONT
02-14-2009, 01:31 PM
You have an antiquated idea of war. Armies no longer line up in rank and file and march into enemy fire. Aerial combat no longer includes a face-off before engaging in the fight. If a fighter pilot can sneak up on his enemy and take a shot without being seen than we call that technical superiority. 200 years ago sneaking up on your enemy and shooting him in the back would have been considered cowardly. If a sniper can take out a bad guy at 1000 yards from a concealed position we call that skill. When we drop GPS guided bombs from altitudes so high that the people on the ground never even heard the aircraft fly over, what is that? Is that cowardly? No! Is it cheating to kill the enemy before he even realizes you are there? This isn't the 15th century and these guys are not knights who wait for a signal before engaging in battle.



ummmm ok.....and?

BlackGold4vr
02-14-2009, 01:37 PM
ummmm ok.....and?

Please inform the rest of us what being a warrior really means.......

This should be entertaining! :hilarious:

TEEMONT
02-14-2009, 01:48 PM
Please inform the rest of us what being a warrior really means.......

This should be entertaining! :hilarious:

it has nothing to do with shooting up roids....

LarryNJ
02-14-2009, 01:58 PM
back off, buy your ticket and enjoy the show!

This is where I am at. I really wouldn't mind if they made it all legal. It's entertainment, if they want to kill themselves to entertain us so be it. Would John Belushi have been as funny if he wasn't coke'd up all the time? I doubt it. Many great musicians were regularly on drugs, did that make their music or shows better? In many cases yes.

But now that there are specific rules against it, it is cheating. When the rules weren't in place it was simply trying to be the best they could.

BlackGold4vr
02-14-2009, 01:59 PM
it has nothing to do with shooting up roids....


Human beings have always been competitve and have always looked for a way to gain an edge on their opponent at every level of competition. When someone finds something that gives them that edge everyone else rushes to find out what it is so that they can copy it. Tell me this isn't true. You see this in every sport. Technology in training and sports supplements is exactly the same thing you are calling cheating. Finding ways to optimize performance is all meant to gain an edge over the opponent. If you have a better tennis racket or some better golf clubs do you consider it cheating if you win with them? If a nascar team finds a way to make their car go 1 mph faster than everybody elses are they obligated to share that information? Is it cheating if they use that advantage to win the race? As long as you were playing within the established rules you have done NOTHING wrong! :yesnod:

TEEMONT
02-14-2009, 02:01 PM
Human beings have always been competitve and have always looked for a way to gain an edge on their opponent at every level of competition. When someone finds something that gives them that edge everyone else rushes to find out what it is so that they can copy it. Tell me this isn't true. You see this in every sport. Technology in training and sports supplements is exactly the same thing you are calling cheating. Finding ways to optimize performance is all meant to gain an edge over the opponent. If you have a better tennis racket or some better golf clubs do you consider it cheating if you win with them? If a nascar team finds a way to make their car go 1 mph faster than everybody elses are they obligated to share that information? Is it cheating if they use that advantage to win the race? As long as you were playing within the established rules you have done NOTHING wrong! :yesnod:

I never said they cheated...I just said

No one on this site will say yes. According to Steeler fans, only other teams cheat.

BlackGold4vr
02-14-2009, 02:19 PM
I never said they cheated...I just said


You are saying they cheated because you imply that magically they were the only ones using them. This is far from true! :nono:

TEEMONT
02-14-2009, 04:48 PM
You are saying they cheated because you imply that magically they were the only ones using them. This is far from true! :nono:

wow...really? I implied that? Hmmm well ok then, you've convinced me!

And just b/c other people did it as well, doesn't mean it's not cheating. There were plenty of clean guys back then too, all of whom got cheated by anyone doing roids, Steelers included. Do they deserve an asterisk? Probably not, none of them has ever denied using, to my knowledge at least, but like my mother always said, two wrongs do no make a right.

BlackGold4vr
02-14-2009, 05:24 PM
wow...really? I implied that? Hmmm well ok then, you've convinced me!

And just b/c other people did it as well, doesn't mean it's not cheating. There were plenty of clean guys back then too, all of whom got cheated by anyone doing roids, Steelers included. Do they deserve an asterisk? Probably not, none of them has ever denied using, to my knowledge at least, but like my mother always said, two wrongs do no make a right.


Your arguments are non-sensical. Lets just put astericks next to every athlete in every sport. Since there is no way to know who used and who didn't for sure. Hell, throw an astericks up there next to Hank Aaron too. He may have taken a vitamin supplement with his glass of milk each day. Perhaps something Hank took is now on the banned substance list. If every other player didn't take the same vitamin that would be unfair! Ephedra was a legal supplement just a few years ago and now it is banned. Lets wipe out all the records in every sport and after we start stringent testing we can begin keeping records again. Yeah, that would be stupid. Much like this whole thread. :yellowthumb:

AZ_Steeler
02-14-2009, 05:35 PM
Stupid Question! Steroids were in every gym in the 70`s, they were taking them like they were in PEZ dispenser. Let it go! Nothing against you BGB, just against the writer

I think this debate should have ended right here in my opinion :dunno:

Stairwayto7
02-14-2009, 05:37 PM
Your arguments are non-sensical. Lets just put astericks next to every athlete in every sport. Since there is no way to know who used and who didn't for sure. Hell, throw an astericks up there next to Hank Aaron too. He may have taken a vitamin supplement with his glass of milk each day. Perhaps something Hank took is now on the banned substance list. If every other player didn't take the same vitamin that would be unfair! Ephedra was a legal supplement just a few years ago and now it is banned. Lets wipe out all the records in every sport and after we start stringent testing we can begin keeping records again. Yeah, that would be stupid. Much like this whole thread. :yellowthumb:

Exactly! Hell take Mike Phelps medals away, ne needs to eat 10,000 calories a day, so he hits a bong for the munchies. People are reading to much into this.

TEEMONT
02-14-2009, 06:34 PM
Your arguments are non-sensical. Lets just put astericks next to every athlete in every sport. Since there is no way to know who used and who didn't for sure. Hell, throw an astericks up there next to Hank Aaron too. He may have taken a vitamin supplement with his glass of milk each day. Perhaps something Hank took is now on the banned substance list. If every other player didn't take the same vitamin that would be unfair! Ephedra was a legal supplement just a few years ago and now it is banned. Lets wipe out all the records in every sport and after we start stringent testing we can begin keeping records again. Yeah, that would be stupid. Much like this whole thread. :yellowthumb:

Jesus, you just ****in love to create arguments where there are none don't you? I never once agreed with the article. I never said they were cheaters. Go back and please show me where I said they cheated, I'll wait.

There is a reason they kept doing 'roids on the DL back in the day, it's because they knew it was wrong. If not, they would have been very open about it, there is no argument there.

Go ahead now, get your last word in quickly.

--- Added 2/14/2009 at 04:34 PM ---


Exactly! Hell take Mike Phelps medals away, ne needs to eat 10,000 calories a day, so he hits a bong for the munchies. People are reading to much into this.

lol...yup...thats why he hits the bong, it's purely for that competitive edge.