PDA

View Full Version : Wasn't all Big Bens fault



BillK
12-23-2008, 09:56 AM
:cope: I live just north of Nashville. I was lucky enough to go to the game. I couldn't believe the way Ben played. I know we all have our good and bad days. It just seemed the Steelers didn't come to play ball. I didn't see it being all Ben's fault, He didn't have much protection. I hate we lost to Tn. But we will meet again. Have to do better, I bet we do!

yinzer
12-23-2008, 10:47 AM
:cope: I live just north of Nashville. I was lucky enough to go to the game. I couldn't believe the way Ben played. I know we all have our good and bad days. It just seemed the Steelers didn't come to play ball. I didn't see it being all Ben's fault, He didn't have much protection. I hate we lost to Tn. But we will meet again. Have to do better, I bet we do!

the loss wasn't COMPLETELY on ben but let's be realistic here. his 4 turnovers cost us 21 points. protection was terrible as usual but he's got to hold onto the ball.

popstaala
12-23-2008, 10:52 AM
ben sucks end of story

TEEMONT
12-23-2008, 11:05 AM
ben sucks end of story

and your the typical idiotic Steeler fan...end of story......

ejsteeler
12-23-2008, 11:08 AM
ben sucks end of story

Seriously? Dude, you obviously know squat about football. Do you still suck your thumb?

yinzer
12-23-2008, 11:10 AM
ben sucks end of story

sarcasm perhaps? :thinking: that's the only thing i can think off because that's just ridiculous.

ejsteeler
12-23-2008, 11:11 AM
sarcasm perhaps? :thinking: that's the only thing i can think off because that's just ridiculous.

I hope you're right....for their sake. I'd hate anybody to have to go through life that clueless.....

SteelWolf62
12-23-2008, 11:20 AM
ben sucks end of story

:plus1::plus1:

ejsteeler
12-23-2008, 11:25 AM
Wow, another clueless, lost soul......

HUNT4SEVEN
12-23-2008, 11:29 AM
Yo Ben is Ben an we have to live with that:yesnod:, he's only 5 years old in the league, He does have to take care of the ball better, But the whole team seem to me to be playing very vanilla, also remember we have had the toughest schedule, these past 5 games have not been an cake walk for them:yesnod:. i don't know to many teams that could of played the schedule we played the last 5 games an went 5-0 after the sesaon we have had:yellowthumb:

AZ_Steeler
12-23-2008, 12:31 PM
It's really a catch 22... yes Ben needs to hold onto the ball when he's being sacked but at the same time if he had better protection he wouldn't be getting sacked or making bad decisions when he's throwing the ball down field because the rush is on!

It's hard to put the blame on one person... It's a team game and they ALL are at fault!

ejsteeler
12-23-2008, 12:47 PM
It's really a catch 22... yes Ben needs to hold onto the ball when he's being sacked but at the same time if he had better protection he wouldn't be getting sacked or making bad decisions when he's throwing the ball down field because the rush is on!

It's hard to put the blame on one person... It's a team game and they ALL are at fault!

:yellowthumb:

BlitzburghRockCity
12-23-2008, 01:10 PM
Anybody on this board who actually thinks that Ben sucks really need to take a step back into reality and realize that if Ben is not our QB we are barely .500 team right now and probably worse. Considering how bad our offense is in general, how bad the OL has been and the non existant running game we're lucky to have Ben. Yes the Titans game was bad and Ben tried to do way too much in that game. It sucked, it's over, we're in the playoffs and it's a whole new ball game.

If we're going to do anything in the post season it's going to because of Ben making plays for us on offense, it's that simple. Our running game isn't going to beat anybody but we have to hope they can do just enough but make no mistake we will go as far as Ben will take us on offense.

NCSteeler
12-23-2008, 01:22 PM
What has changed so drastically in a years time that Ben's stats are so much worse? The team is about the same, maybe even better.

1. No running game, Willie hurt, rotating backs week after week
2. Schedule, when it's all over I won't use this as a rallying cry or an excuse, but the fact remains that in the face of the hardest schedule the NFL has ever seen, Ben preformed average and great at times, VERY VERY good considering #1 above

I wouldn't trade Ben for anyone in the league.

Also note the amazing season Rivers is having ala 2007 Ben, against the 2nd easiest schedule and for that matter Cassel against the easiest schedule.

Iron City South
12-23-2008, 02:13 PM
Outside of being who he is: a drama queen, a guy who sometimes holds onto the ball too long, and a guy that sometimes forces passes rather than throws it away, I don't see how any criticism can be leveled at Ben . . . period.

This season, Ben's poor numbers are a result of an extremely tough schedule, injuries to his backfield, a ****** O-line (much worse than last year), and a seperated shoulder. I mean, what is there not to understand? Couple that with the crap-ola offense that Arians is running, along with his limited playbook and stale, unimaginative play calling .... that's really all that needs to be said.

Right now Ben is trapped within the ****** system that Arians has afforded him. It simply doesn't work. It hasn't worked for two years now.

But consider this .... in spite of an intellectually retarded OL Coordinator, a **** poor O-line and O-line coaching and scheme .... it's either BEN or the defense who finds a way to win games for us.

steelers4life66
12-23-2008, 03:46 PM
and your the typical idiotic Steeler fan...end of story......
:haha:

--- Added 12/23/2008 at 01:46 PM ---


Wow, another clueless, lost soul......
Seem to be coming out of the wood work this week.

pera2oo4
12-23-2008, 03:55 PM
ben sucks end of story

your getting harassed...
with reason...

LatrobePA
12-23-2008, 04:07 PM
A game that really had meaning but wasn't that big of a deal, still pissed me off we lost and for the reason we loss. 21 pts from TO's, all coming from Ben. He doesn't suck by any means, but he sure was trying that game.....

This is exactly what we needed though, a freakin wake up call.....

DBR96A
12-23-2008, 05:18 PM
The average ranking of all defenses we've faced this season is 12th. Among the top 12 defenses in the league, we've faced nine of them in 10 games. (The only defenses in the top 12 that we have not faced are the Vikings, the Buccaneers, and our own.) Our record in those 10 games is a respectable 6-4.

RAWSTEEL
12-23-2008, 06:37 PM
I think their was to much changing plays at the line and are offense of play calling has been bad all year and really bad that game the play calling has 2 get better. I do not like the offense of corrdinator at all. we never do play action anymore we dont try runing wille 2 the outside were he's good. I also think moore is running better than willie right now i would have him in more and russell rotate them 2 see who gets a better run game going.

LatrobePA
12-23-2008, 06:38 PM
Agree'd records mean nothing once your a lock into the post season....Just bragging rights, which the Titans had pleanty of, but the 2nd time will be diffrent....

Stlrs4Life
12-23-2008, 06:48 PM
Outside of being who he is: a drama queen, a guy who sometimes holds onto the ball too long, and a guy that sometimes forces passes rather than throws it away, I don't see how any criticism can be leveled at Ben . . . period.

This season, Ben's poor numbers are a result of an extremely tough schedule, injuries to his backfield, a ****** O-line (much worse than last year), and a seperated shoulder. I mean, what is there not to understand? Couple that with the crap-ola offense that Arians is running, along with his limited playbook and stale, unimaginative play calling .... that's really all that needs to be said.

Right now Ben is trapped within the ****** system that Arians has afforded him. It simply doesn't work. It hasn't worked for two years now.

But consider this .... in spite of an intellectually retarded OL Coordinator, a **** poor O-line and O-line coaching and scheme .... it's either BEN or the defense who finds a way to win games for us.


:plus1::plus1:

SteelFanInIL
12-23-2008, 07:08 PM
ben sucks end of story

Were you saying that in 05'...or were you even a fan then. The guy does not suck! I'd go on but I think you're a fair-weathered fan.

ponyboy1012
12-23-2008, 08:07 PM
They win as a team and they lose as a team, you can't blame in on one person, the offense was bad and where was the defense they couldn't get off the field on 3rd and 4th down. that's what lost the game...

Steel Trap86
12-23-2008, 08:23 PM
I think Ben's performance in the first playoff game will give us a bit of a determination as to how far the Steelers are going to go. If Ben can pick it up and play like the Ben we all know, then I think the Steelers have a good chance of going to Tampa Bay.

BigBLuvr
12-23-2008, 08:24 PM
And you call yourself a Steeler Fan. A statement like that is complete ignorance. We may have the #1 Defense but we certainly do NOT have the #1 Offensive Line. This is a team sport andyou can't blame this all on Ben. Learn the game and get a clue.

Moondog
12-23-2008, 08:34 PM
I think Ben's performance in the first playoff game will give us a bit of a determination as to how far the Steelers are going to go. If Ben can pick it up and play like the Ben we all know, then I think the Steelers have a good chance of going to Tampa Bay.

That's the way I'm seeing it. I think the defense will turn in a stellar performance in that 1st playoff game because they got a little wakeup call of their own against the Titans and the rest will be up to Ben.

yinzer
12-23-2008, 11:09 PM
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/sports/steelers/s_604111.html?source=rss&feed=9

:cursin:

BlitzburghRockCity
12-23-2008, 11:31 PM
That's nothing new, we all saw them just rushing 4 guys almost the whole time after the 1st quarter. That's what happens when you don't have a running game, the pass rushers don't have to worry about their running assignments because they know we're not successful running it like we normally are. You can bet we'll see all the pressure in the world come the playoffs so they better get it figured out, but Im not holding my breath.

Scalaid6
12-25-2008, 03:14 AM
I dont know why fans get mad when Ben gets criticized. I mean does he get ammunity from criticism? If you say the Line isnt that good that is a fact. If you say Arians has some bad playcalling games that also is a fact. If you say Ben has had a BAD year that also is a fact, why do Steeler fans get mad? Ben has been the a major weak aspect of our team, with the turnovers, the sacks and bad passes. So have drops and bad execution. Look at all 4 of our losses and then look at Bens stats. If you dont think that Ben sucked in those games your just not being honest. (4turnovers vs Giants, 5 vs Eagles, 3 vs Colts and 4 vs Titans) Thats 16 turnovers by the qb. We all saw what happened to the Cowboys when Romo turned the ball over 5 times vs us. Did Romo lose the game for them? I'd say he did. How is that a fact and saying the same about Ben is not. I will take it a point farther. In 1995 we lost to the Cowboys in the Super Bowl. Neill O'donnell through TWO costly picks and the Steeler Nation unanamously say that Neil lost that game for us. Ben had 16 turnovers in 4 games how does he escape the same criticism?

NYCsteelersfan
12-25-2008, 05:23 AM
That's nothing new, we all saw them just rushing 4 guys almost the whole time after the 1st quarter. That's what happens when you don't have a running game, the pass rushers don't have to worry about their running assignments because they know we're not successful running it like we normally are. You can bet we'll see all the pressure in the world come the playoffs so they better get it figured out, but Im not holding my breath.

Exactly.

Countering the blitz 101:

1. Establish a consistent running game, causing defenders to fear blitzing due to over-running the rusher.

I wish there was a stat somewhere to show how many times an "official" blitz is sent. I bet you we lead the league by a staggering number. It's been more thna a few games now that defenses around the league have been officialy told by their coordinators to not worry about our rushing offense and to just go for Roethlisberger. You put a target like that on any quarterback int he league and he'll have numbers much worse than Roethlisberger. Can you imagine pocket passers like the Manning brothers or Brady behind this line, facing this many blitzes. All 3 would be dead.

Last time I remember, an offense is two fold, run and pass. Right now our offense is one fold, pass. The problem with that is our "deep threat" receivers are not "deep threat" receivers and our pass scheme is basically the same 10 pass plays that Cowher had written into his playbook written in crayon and they are just being run over and over again.

Roethlisberger is the last problem with this offense. If you can call him a problem at all (yes he just needs to throw the ball away SOMETIMES). But I know he's not, not because he's an idiot but because he's trying to win the game and he knows Parker isn't going to help so it's all on him.

Scalaid6
12-25-2008, 06:15 AM
I have to disagree with you bro. The best way to beat a blitz and a poor Offensive Line is to make your read and get the ball out quickly. Dan Marino never had a great line (except Dwight Stevenson) neither did Joe Montana or alot of others but they had the ability to process the information quickly and get the ball out. If you watch when we played the Giants/Colts, thats the main reason we didnt sack Peyton or Eli, they got the ball out quick. Kerry Collins also did a good job of this as well last week. We can blame the line all we want but the truth of the matter is that MANY times Ben has an ample amount of time to get the ball out but he still takes a sack. He still had 16 turnovers in our losses, the line didnt make those passes. Lastly, if you remember that Super Bowl in 95, Neil O'donnell was blitzed on BOTH of his picks and under much durress, so why doesnt anyone blame our line or the receivers for his picks? Why doesnt Neil get the benefit of the bad line (no time to pass excuse?) Why is Neils case different from Bens?
And it is OBVIOUS that Parker is hurt, look how he runs. How come Ben gets a pass when hes hurt (bad games in the middle of the season; shoulder injury) and willie does not?
Does anyone think Willie is 100%?

DIESELMAN
12-25-2008, 06:32 AM
I dont know why fans get mad when Ben gets criticized. I mean does he get ammunity from criticism? If you say the Line isnt that good that is a fact. If you say Arians has some bad playcalling games that also is a fact. If you say Ben has had a BAD year that also is a fact, why do Steeler fans get mad? Ben has been the a major weak aspect of our team, with the turnovers, the sacks and bad passes. So have drops and bad execution. Look at all 4 of our losses and then look at Bens stats. If you dont think that Ben sucked in those games your just not being honest. (4turnovers vs Giants, 5 vs Eagles, 3 vs Colts and 4 vs Titans) Thats 16 turnovers by the qb. We all saw what happened to the Cowboys when Romo turned the ball over 5 times vs us. Did Romo lose the game for them? I'd say he did. How is that a fact and saying the same about Ben is not. I will take it a point farther. In 1995 we lost to the Cowboys in the Super Bowl. Neill O'donnell through TWO costly picks and the Steeler Nation unanamously say that Neil lost that game for us. Ben had 16 turnovers in 4 games how does he escape the same criticism?


I have to disagree with you bro. The best way to beat a blitz and a poor Offensive Line is to make your read and get the ball out quickly. Dan Marino never had a great line (except Dwight Stevenson) neither did Joe Montana or alot of others but they had the ability to process the information quickly and get the ball out. If you watch when we played the Giants/Colts, thats the main reason we didnt sack Peyton or Eli, they got the ball out quick. Kerry Collins also did a good job of this as well last week. We can blame the line all we want but the truth of the matter is that MANY times Ben has an ample amount of time to get the ball out but he still takes a sack. He still had 16 turnovers in our losses, the line didnt make those passes. Lastly, if you remember that Super Bowl in 95, Neil O'donnell was blitzed on BOTH of his picks and under much durress, so why doesnt anyone blame our line or the receivers for his picks? Why doesnt Neil get the benefit of the bad line (no time to pass excuse?) Why is Neils case different from Bens?
And it is OBVIOUS that Parker is hurt, look how he runs. How come Ben gets a pass when hes hurt (bad games in the middle of the season; shoulder injury) and willie does not?
Does anyone think Willie is 100%?

:plus1: Nice!! on both posts.....

You have to either give the blame entirely to Ben or you can split it between Ben and Arians....either way, doesn't really matter. Ben for 4 fumbles and 2 INT's and/or BA for being a incompetent, half ***, stubborn, untalented OC.

NYCsteelersfan
12-25-2008, 06:33 AM
I have to disagree with you bro. The best way to beat a blitz and a poor Offensive Line is to make your read and get the ball out quickly. Dan Marino never had a great line (except Dwight Stevenson) neither did Joe Montana or alot of others but they had the ability to process the information quickly and get the ball out. If you watch when we played the Giants/Colts, thats the main reason we didnt sack Peyton or Eli, they got the ball out quick. Kerry Collins also did a good job of this as well last week.

I agree with your method of countering the blitz. I listed my method though not because it's the best, but because it's the foundation for countering the blitz. It's the easiest and most obvious method. Your above method, which further counters the blitz to an even greater level requires a specific pass scheme which we just don't have and is not easy to implement. Especially when we have an idiot for an offensive coordinator.


We can blame the line all we want but the truth of the matter is that MANY times Ben has an ample amount of time to get the ball out but he still takes a sack. He still had 16 turnovers in our losses, the line didnt make those passes. Lastly, if you remember that Super Bowl in 95, Neil O'donnell was blitzed on BOTH of his picks and under much durress, so why doesnt anyone blame our line or the receivers for his picks? Why doesnt Neil get the benefit of the bad line (no time to pass excuse?) Why is Neils case different from Bens?
And it is OBVIOUS that Parker is hurt, look how he runs. How come Ben gets a pass when hes hurt (bad games in the middle of the season; shoulder injury) and willie does not?
Does anyone think Willie is 100%?

About O'Donnell and Roethlisberger. Roethlisberger does what he does because he has no help on offense right now and he feels he is FORCED to take stupid chances to win because no one else will do it if he doesn't. That is why I personally give him a pass. I assure you that if we had even an AVERAGE running game and Arian's was somewhat competent in his play-calling, and Roethlisberger still made the mistakes he made, I would be all over him. And I will bet if he does take stupid chances that end up costing us the Superbowl instead of just throwing it away so he doesn't stand out as the responsible party, he'll get chewed apart by fans and the media.

As for Parker, here is my problem. If you're hurt say so and stop playing because the way you are playing right now, you are absolutely useless to the team. If Tomlin says, "the team NEEDS you", man up and say, "I'm absolutely useless to the team while being this injured".

Aside from that, at this point I blame Tomlin for stupidly and stubbornly sticking with Parker as the "premiere" back. Because if a guy is THAT hurt to make him THAT useless, he shouldn't be in the game, especially not to the extent that Parker has been in every game.

Scalaid6
12-25-2008, 03:32 PM
Ok so what your saying AGAIN, is that everyone gets blame except BEN. Tomlin also, stayed with a hurt Ben if you recall (were you critical of that decision?). Your said if your hurt then dont play. Wasnt Ben hurt this season and KILLING the team? I again disagree with you. Ben has more weapons on our offense than the US Military. How come Leftwich can come in against the Redskins with the SAME personnel that Ben uses and make this offense click? The 1st half of the skins game our offense with Ben, looked like it has looked for most of the year (lathargic). Ben gets hurt and enter Leftwich and all of a sudden, the sacks stop, the protection is good, there are running lanes (small ones) and we are putting points up. Bens weakness is processing the information quickly. Byron strength is processing the information quickly and getting the ball out. He did it in relief vs the skins AND vs the Eagles. If you recall in the Eagles game Ben was sacked and beat up all game (9sacks) and Byron comes in against that SAME pressure (and yes they were blitzing him there was no prevent) and moves us down the field. Had it not been for a dropped pass by Nate in the endzone we would have scored. I cant wait to see Byron come in vs the Browns just to test my theory that he processes the information better and gets rid of the ball quicker than Ben, therefore limiting the high number of sacks. Peope will say "its a meaningless game" I disagree, the Browns want toe beat us BAD.

I'm not saying Ben is a bum but he MOST CERTAINLY is the reason for the high number of sacks. Its not Arians. How many turnovers has Arians caused this season? How many audibles has Ben called but yet Arians gets most of the blame for the playcalling? Thats too convenient for me. The qb is the straw that stirs the drink. Does anyone know the O cordinator for the Dolphins? How come they are having success? It is because of smart play from the qb positon. How about in Atlanta? Take away the qb (Ryan) and the falcons are not in the playoffs. Your trying to tell me that Peyton Manning and Brady are good BECAUSE OF THE OFFENSIVE COORDINATOR? How many Super Bowls did Brady win w/o a running game? I can name several qbs who still had success without a running game. The Steelers have not lost 4 games due to lack of a running game, they have lost 4 games due to BAD play from Ben not Arians. How guys can fault our receivers when they drop the ball, can fault our Coordinator when bad plays are called, can fault our Head Coach for leaving vets in, can fault our O-Line when Ben gets no time but DONT fault the qb when he plays bad. Ben makes the most money, hes the face of the organization, he has the ball in his hand the most. No single person has more control of the Steelers than Ben but he escapes the MOST blame. This is sheer Hypocrisy.

--- Added 12/25/2008 at 01:32 PM ---

2004 17 TD's 11 Ints
2005 17 TD's 9 Ints
2006 18 TD's 23 Ints
2007 30 TD's an anomaly result of a gravy schedule (Arians was the OC remember)
2008 17 TD's 14 Ints


Top 10 pass defenses Ben has faced THIS YEAR......

Eagles #2 - 50.6 - 0TD/1INT/2FUMBLES - 5.24YPA (L)
Ravens #3 - 80.4 - 1TD/1INT - 7.96 YPA (w)
Ravens #3 - 81.9 - 1TD/0INT - 6.15 YPA (W)
Giants #7 - 38.5 - 1TD/4INT - 6.52 YPA (L)
Redskins # 6 - 15.1 - 0TD/1INT - 2.94 YPA (W)
Cots #10 - 59.0 - 0TD/1INT - 6.83 YPA (L)
Cowboys #4 - 80.9 - 1TD/0INT - 6.18 YPA (W)
Titans #8 - 86.6 - 2TD/2INT/2FUMBLES - 8.20 YPA (L)

Total = 61.6 rating | 6 TD | 10 INT | 6.25 YPA
I KNOW I KNOW ITS THE LINE.... OR THE RUNNING GAME..... OR ARIANS. IF WE DIDNT HAVE THAT DEFENSE WE WOULD BE IN TROUBLE!!

SteelFanInIL
12-25-2008, 03:52 PM
No doubt Ben needs to step it up going into the playoffs and anyone who is objective won't argue that his play at times has costs us some games. He should shoulder most of the blame, he is the quaterback after all. What I can't stand is jagoffs who say "he sucks"... or "get rid of him" I mean give me a :cursin:ing break...mabey you would like to have a Bubby ("Hey guys...remember me") Brister back at the helm. Criticisim is appreaciated, ignorance is not. And yes the Clowns game is important...IT'S THE STINKING BROWNS! :tt02: :cope:

Scalaid6
12-25-2008, 06:19 PM
No doubt Ben needs to step it up going into the playoffs and anyone who is objective won't argue that his play at times has costs us some games. He should shoulder most of the blame, he is the quaterback after all. What I can't stand is jagoffs who say "he sucks"... or "get rid of him" I mean give me a :cursin:ing break...mabey you would like to have a Bubby ("Hey guys...remember me") Brister back at the helm. Criticisim is appreaciated, ignorance is not. And yes the Clowns game is important...IT'S THE STINKING BROWNS! :tt02: :cope:

GREAT POST! Agreed and thats all Im saying brother!

NYCsteelersfan
12-25-2008, 08:13 PM
Ok so what your saying AGAIN, is that everyone gets blame except BEN. Tomlin also, stayed with a hurt Ben if you recall (were you critical of that decision?). Your said if your hurt then dont play. Wasnt Ben hurt this season and KILLING the team?

My honest opinion, I don't think Roethlisberger was ever "hurt". Roethlisberger had the same "injury" that baseball pitchers get when they have 3-4 bad games in a row, the ole' "him and our team sucks right now muscle strain". I think Tomlin was covering for offensive woes that have continued despite not hearing anythign about Parker or Roethlisbergers "injuries". Just my opinion.


I again disagree with you. Ben has more weapons on our offense than the US Military.

lol...that's a brutal insult to the US military. Sorry, but I just don't understand your definition of a weapon. A weapon gives you an advantage over the opponent. None of our players are significantly better than the opponents, thus we have no advantage or weapons. Yeah Hines Ward is a great "all around" player, but his strength is blocking, last time I checked, defense's don't even consider doubling Ward.


How come Leftwich can come in against the Redskins with the SAME personnel that Ben uses and make this offense click? The 1st half of the skins game our offense with Ben, looked like it has looked for most of the year (lathargic). Ben gets hurt and enter Leftwich and all of a sudden, the sacks stop, the protection is good, there are running lanes (small ones) and we are putting points up. Bens weakness is processing the information quickly. Byron strength is processing the information quickly and getting the ball out. He did it in relief vs the skins AND vs the Eagles. If you recall in the Eagles game Ben was sacked and beat up all game (9sacks) and Byron comes in against that SAME pressure (and yes they were blitzing him there was no prevent) and moves us down the field. Had it not been for a dropped pass by Nate in the endzone we would have scored. I cant wait to see Byron come in vs the Browns just to test my theory that he processes the information better and gets rid of the ball quicker than Ben, therefore limiting the high number of sacks. Peope will say "its a meaningless game" I disagree, the Browns want toe beat us BAD.

Sorry but 3 quarters worth of play from a backup means nothing and is only good enough to form a theory but the theory will probably prove wrong. Chances are if you put Leftwich under center he'll eventually get killed just like Roethlisberger OR he'll just have a lot more INT's and incomplete passes cause he'll constantly be throwing it away to avoid the blitz. Even if Leftwich does process the information quicker it is offset by the fact that he takes longer to deliver the football. There are QB's in the league better than Roethlisberger, Leftwich is not one of them and the last thing this offense needs is a new QB when we are ranked 24th in the league in rushing. There are a lot of teams with QB's a lot worse than Roethlisberger who manage to run the ball much better than us:

20th in the rush-Bears
18th in the rush-Jaguars
16th in the rush-Seahawks
16th in the rush-Bills
10th in the rush-Raiders (this is my favorite)


I'm not saying Ben is a bum but he MOST CERTAINLY is the reason for the high number of sacks. Its not Arians. How many turnovers has Arians caused this season? How many audibles has Ben called but yet Arians gets most of the blame for the playcalling? Thats too convenient for me. The qb is the straw that stirs the drink. Does anyone know the O cordinator for the Dolphins? How come they are having success? It is because of smart play from the qb positon.

You honestly think Pennington is responsible for the total turn around of the team?


How about in Atlanta? Take away the qb (Ryan) and the falcons are not in the playoffs.

He has 15 TD passes and 9 interceptions. Give Roethlisberger those same numbers and ESPN would have all their analysts calling him a "good" "game manager", like they did in '05. Give Matt Ryan those same type of numbers and he's called the MVP of the league. Matt Ryan has the 5th best rushing offense in the league and a very efficient offensive pass system. 20 out of 29 other QB's in the league would have Atlanta in the playoffs this year, including Roethlisberger.


Your trying to tell me that Peyton Manning and Brady are good BECAUSE OF THE OFFENSIVE COORDINATOR?

A lot of their success and numbers are a direct result of the offensive system they are and have been in, absolutely. Peyton Manning would not have this Pittsburgh team at 11-4. Peyton Manning wouldn't know what to do in this system or behind this o-line. I would say the same thing for Brady. Their strengths are having lines that give them a comfortable 3 seconds on almost every down. Roethlisberger faces pressure before he can complete a 3 step drop.


How many Super Bowls did Brady win w/o a running game? I can name several qbs who still had success without a running game.

I personally know exactly how Brady won 2 of his 3 Superbowls. And I can name several QB's who have won without a running game also. But there is a difference between no running game and 24th ranked running game. Name the last QB that won with a 24th ranked running game.



The Steelers have not lost 4 games due to lack of a running game, they have lost 4 games due to BAD play from Ben not Arians. How guys can fault our receivers when they drop the ball, can fault our Coordinator when bad plays are called, can fault our Head Coach for leaving vets in, can fault our O-Line when Ben gets no time but DONT fault the qb when he plays bad. Ben makes the most money, hes the face of the organization, he has the ball in his hand the most. No single person has more control of the Steelers than Ben but he escapes the MOST blame. This is sheer Hypocrisy.

--- Added 12/25/2008 at 01:32 PM ---

2004 17 TD's 11 Ints
2005 17 TD's 9 Ints
2006 18 TD's 23 Ints
2007 30 TD's an anomaly result of a gravy schedule (Arians was the OC remember)
2008 17 TD's 14 Ints


Top 10 pass defenses Ben has faced THIS YEAR......

Eagles #2 - 50.6 - 0TD/1INT/2FUMBLES - 5.24YPA (L)
Ravens #3 - 80.4 - 1TD/1INT - 7.96 YPA (w)
Ravens #3 - 81.9 - 1TD/0INT - 6.15 YPA (W)
Giants #7 - 38.5 - 1TD/4INT - 6.52 YPA (L)
Redskins # 6 - 15.1 - 0TD/1INT - 2.94 YPA (W)
Cots #10 - 59.0 - 0TD/1INT - 6.83 YPA (L)
Cowboys #4 - 80.9 - 1TD/0INT - 6.18 YPA (W)
Titans #8 - 86.6 - 2TD/2INT/2FUMBLES - 8.20 YPA (L)

Total = 61.6 rating | 6 TD | 10 INT | 6.25 YPA
I KNOW I KNOW ITS THE LINE.... OR THE RUNNING GAME..... OR ARIANS. IF WE DIDNT HAVE THAT DEFENSE WE WOULD BE IN TROUBLE!!

Those are nice stats, they honestly are, no sarcasm. But until you show me 5 QB's with better numbers against all the "Top 10 pass defenses" they faced in a single season then these numbers are meaningless. What are we comparing these numbers too? What is the average passer rating for a QB when he faces a top 10 pass defense? What do QB's average when they play top 10 defenses in consecutive games? Better yet, when was the last time a QB faced 7 of the top 10 pass defenses in the league in a single season?

Scalaid6
12-26-2008, 05:59 AM
My honest opinion, I don't think Roethlisberger was ever "hurt". Roethlisberger had the same "injury" that baseball pitchers get when they have 3-4 bad games in a row, the ole' "him and our team sucks right now muscle strain". I think Tomlin was covering for offensive woes that have continued despite not hearing anythign about Parker or Roethlisbergers "injuries". Just my opinion.

Those offensive woes are due to the play of the qb. Not One lineman has played as poorly as Ben this season, NOT ONE.

lol...that's a brutal insult to the US military. Sorry, but I just don't understand your definition of a weapon. A weapon gives you an advantage over the opponent. None of our players are significantly better than the opponents, thus we have no advantage or weapons. Yeah Hines Ward is a great "all around" player, but his strength is blocking, last time I checked, defense's don't even consider doubling Ward.

Ward has never been doubled, not even in his prime. Hes a possession receiver. Hines strength is blocking? I disagree. Hines blocks well but his strength is being an all around receiver. Hines NEVER made the pro bowl based on his blocking. Hines is not a borderline hall of famer based on his blocking. Weapons? I call Heath Miller a weapon. I call Nate Washington a weapon. I call a Willie Parker a weapon. I call Holmes a weapon and I call Hines a weapon. Its up to the qb to get them the ball. Blame the line all you want, that is very convenient but I watch all the games and Ben has plenty of time to find a wr. The general rule for pass protection is that if the qb has time to plant his back foot that is ample time to process the info and get the ball out. While the qb is backpedalling he is to read the defense and by the time he plants his back foot he should have his mind made up and be ready to release the ball. Ben needs MAJOR work in this regard. His mechanics are UGH

Sorry but 3 quarters worth of play from a backup means nothing and is only good enough to form a theory but the theory will probably prove wrong. Chances are if you put Leftwich under center he'll eventually get killed just like Roethlisberger OR he'll just have a lot more INT's and incomplete passes cause he'll constantly be throwing it away to avoid the blitz. Even if Leftwich does process the information quicker it is offset by the fact that he takes longer to deliver the football. There are QB's in the league better than Roethlisberger, Leftwich is not one of them and the last thing this offense needs is a new QB when we are ranked 24th in the league in rushing. There are a lot of teams with QB's a lot worse than Roethlisberger who manage to run the ball much better than us:

I disagree. I think the advant of Leftwich has made Ben step his game up at times this season. Byron does have a slow release but sacks are avoided due to recognition not your release. Notice we didnt get any sacks on either Manning this season? Recognition and getting the ball out is the reason. During Byrons whole career hes not known for getting a high volume of sacks on him, however, Ben is. Means nothing? It was enough to have SEVERAL people calling to bench Ben. If it means nothing to you, then you should say that but dont imply it means nothing to nobody else. There was plenty of dust kicked up in regards to Bens bad play. Shall I show you?
http://www.stampedeblue.com/2008/11/4/653431/bench-roethlisberger-for-l

http://www.realfootball365.com/articles/steelers/13186

http://ca.sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=ys-accuscorebenvsleftwich111308&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/79557-ben-roethlisberger-friend-or-foe-of-the-pittsburgh-steelers

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/77319-byron-leftwich-bests-big-ben

http://community.post-gazette.com/forums/t/3586.aspx

http://steelerstoday.com/?tag=bench-big-ben

http://community.foxsports.com/blogs/startbyronleftwich/2008/11/11/Send_Big_Ben_to_the_bench_Its_Byrons_time_now2

http://psamp.blogspot.com/2008/11/dear-mike-tomlin-please-sit-ben.html

http://steelerstoday.com/?p=1132


20th in the rush-Bears
18th in the rush-Jaguars
16th in the rush-Seahawks
16th in the rush-Bills
10th in the rush-Raiders (this is my favorite)

Everyone of those teams have a much easier schedule than us and the Bears, Seahawks and Bills had severe injuries to qbs so quite naturally they are going to rely on the run more. And the Raiders start Jamarcus and with his inexperience you MUST lean on th run-Misleading stat.

You honestly think Pennington is responsible for the total turn around of the team?

He has 15 TD passes and 9 interceptions. Give Roethlisberger those same numbers and ESPN would have all their analysts calling him a "good" "game manager", like they did in '05. Give Matt Ryan those same type of numbers and he's called the MVP of the league. Matt Ryan has the 5th best rushing offense in the league and a very efficient offensive pass system. 20 out of 29 other QB's in the league would have Atlanta in the playoffs this year, including Roethlisberger.

I think Chad is the MAJOR reason they are having that turnaround. All of the components are the same as the year before. Are you attributing the success to parcells or the new coach? I give them some credit but unlike Most Steeler fans I give players the most credit for wins and players the most blame for losses-not the coaches who never touch the field. I see in Ryan the same thing I saw in Marino when he was a rookie. A special talent. That guy has "it". To say an absolute statement like 20 of 29 qbs would have gotten ATL in the playoffs" is a stretch. We will never know. One thing we do know is that the Steelers success is due to our defense and NOT our Qb. You cant say that about Ryan. Hes a rookie with better numbers than our $100 million dollar qb who is in his 5th year and that concerns me. One qb is showing potential and growing every week and ours is well........... its ben well documented.

A lot of their success and numbers are a direct result of the offensive system they are and have been in, absolutely. Peyton Manning would not have this Pittsburgh team at 11-4. Peyton Manning wouldn't know what to do in this system or behind this o-line. I would say the same thing for Brady. Their strengths are having lines that give them a comfortable 3 seconds on almost every down. Roethlisberger faces pressure before he can complete a 3 step drop.

I agree with you Peyton wouldnt have us at 11-4, he would have us UNDEFEATED which we should be had we had solid play from our qb in the losses. Brady and Manning dont need time, they process the information fast enough and get the ball out quickly. Did you watch last seasons Super Bowl? The rush was all over Brady but at the end of the day he led his offense to the go ahead td late. It was the D that failed the pats. That same Giants Defense (MINUS OSI/ STRAHAN) forced Ben into 5 turnovers (but I know it was the lines fault- I get it) To imply that Ben is better or equal to Manning and Brady shows that you suffer from severe HOMER ITIS. Please take your meds. To say Ben faces pressure before he can take a 3 step drop is an out and out lie. Sorry, I watch every second of every game. Even in that Eagles game Ben had time and threw into double coverage and got picked, shall I show you? Please notice at the 1:07 mark he has time and throws into double coverage and is picked. This bad decision is the lines fault? Notice on every pass he has his back foot planted. At this point the ball should be coming out (As you seen when Byron came in and relieved himl; The blitz wasnt effective once Ben left now was it?) http://www.nfl.com/videos?videoId=09000d5d80b0339e
Poise and pocket pressence is a problem for Ben and so is blitz recogniton, he is very underdeveloped in that area. You say its the line? I say its Ben

I personally know exactly how Brady won 2 of his 3 Superbowls. And I can name several QB's who have won without a running game also. But there is a difference between no running game and 24th ranked running game. Name the last QB that won with a 24th ranked running game.

Won what? What kind of a question is that? Does the team have to have the exact rank of 24? Your kidding right? Thats like saying. Name the last qb to win with the 18th ranked running game. WTF???

Those are nice stats, they honestly are, no sarcasm. But until you show me 5 QB's with better numbers against all the "Top 10 pass defenses" they faced in a single season then these numbers are meaningless. What are we comparing these numbers too? What is the average passer rating for a QB when he faces a top 10 pass defense? What do QB's average when they play top 10 defenses in consecutive games? Better yet, when was the last time a QB faced 7 of the top 10 pass defenses in the league in a single season?

These numbers are meaningless? Of course they are to a Ben apologist. I guess 16 turnovers in 4 losses are meaningless as well? Too funny. When the Steelers win Ben gets the credit but when they lose Arians/Tomlin get the blame. I get it.
I guess we have had a bad O-line since 05 huh? Despite Willie ranking high in the league in rushing our line just sucks. Lets look at Bens sack totals and then compare them to other qbs in the league. Notice how other qbs pass TWICE as much as Ben but have considerably lower sack totals (I know I know its our line) Why is Bens sack total so high? Because its like I said before; he processes the information too slow and a sack results. I have also included Charlie Batch in the mix. Same offense, same personnel but MUCH LOWER sack totals. HMMMM

2004
Ben 295 Att 30 sacks
P.Manning 497 Att 13 sacks
Plummer 521 Att 15 sacks
Favre 540 Att 12 sacks

2005
Ben 261 Atts 23 sacks
P.Manning 453 Atts 17 sacks
C.Palmer 509 Atts 19 sacks
Brady 530 Atts 26 sacks

2006
Ben 469 Atts 46 sacks
P.Manning 557 Atts 14 sacks
Brees 554 Atts 18 sacks
Rivers 467 Atts 27 sacks

2007
Ben 404 Atts 47 sacks
P.Manning 515 Atts 21 sacks
Romo 520 Atts 24 sacks
Favre 535 Atts 15 sacks

Batch from 05-07
125 Atts 4 sacks
lets x that by 4
500 Atts 20 sacks

NYCsteelersfan
12-26-2008, 03:05 PM
Those offensive woes are due to the play of the qb. Not One lineman has played as poorly as Ben this season, NOT ONE.

For someone who loves posting stats, you do realize that Roethlisberger has an 80 QB rating right? Ranked 21st in the league, within 3 points of being ranked 16th in the league. And yet somehow you manage to say his play has been worse than all of our linemen.


Ward has never been doubled, not even in his prime. Hes a possession receiver. Hines strength is blocking? I disagree. Hines blocks well but his strength is being an all around receiver. Hines NEVER made the pro bowl based on his blocking. Hines is not a borderline hall of famer based on his blocking. Weapons? I call Heath Miller a weapon. I call Nate Washington a weapon. I call a Willie Parker a weapon. I call Holmes a weapon and I call Hines a weapon. Its up to the qb to get them the ball. Blame the line all you want, that is very convenient but I watch all the games and Ben has plenty of time to find a wr. The general rule for pass protection is that if the qb has time to plant his back foot that is ample time to process the info and get the ball out. While the qb is backpedalling he is to read the defense and by the time he plants his back foot he should have his mind made up and be ready to release the ball. Ben needs MAJOR work in this regard. His mechanics are UGH

I'm not going to make that long of an arguement on this one because you are getting more and more unreasonable trying to argue your point. While I actually agree about Miller, you just called Willie Parker, Santonio Holmes and Nate Washington offensive weapons. In what league? The CFL? How many drops do Ward, Washington and Holmes have? Ward is tied for 5th in the league and Holmes is tied for 6th in the league. We won't even count Washington since he's a #3 receiver and you actually called a #3 receiver an offensive weapon. Where is Parker ranked this year? Offensive weapon? If you consider these guys offensive weapons, what do you consider guys like Moss, Fitzgerald, Andre Johnson, Steve Smith, Adrian Peterson, Turner, Portis, Williams, Jacobs and Steven Jackson? Offensive nuclear weapons? Perhaps you just have a completely different definition.


I disagree. I think the advant of Leftwich has made Ben step his game up at times this season. Byron does have a slow release but sacks are avoided due to recognition not your release. Notice we didnt get any sacks on either Manning this season? Recognition and getting the ball out is the reason. During Byrons whole career hes not known for getting a high volume of sacks on him, however, Ben is. Means nothing? It was enough to have SEVERAL people calling to bench Ben. If it means nothing to you, then you should say that but dont imply it means nothing to nobody else. There was plenty of dust kicked up in regards to Bens bad play. Shall I show you?
http://www.stampedeblue.com/2008/11/...isberger-for-l

http://www.realfootball365.com/articles/steelers/13186

http://ca.sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?...yhoo&type=lgns

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/7...burgh-steelers

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/7...-bests-big-ben

http://community.post-gazette.com/forums/t/3586.aspx

http://steelerstoday.com/?tag=bench-big-ben

http://community.foxsports.com/blogs...rons_time_now2

http://psamp.blogspot.com/2008/11/de...e-sit-ben.html

http://steelerstoday.com/?p=1132

It is the job of the media to stir up, unwarranted, idiotic controversy to increase ratings to sell more advertising. The media said the Browns were going to be good this year and that the Redskins had one of the best teams in the league. The media said Vick was a GREAT quarterback up until he got arrested. The media said Vince Young and Russell were #1 picks overall. Leftwich has 24 attempted passes this year. 24 attempted passes. To turn around and judge a guy on 24 attempted passes and say he would be better than Roethlisberger is simply absurd. Especially since people have seen Leftwich and have seen him fail miserably elsewhere, on what was a good team. I would be 10 times more receptive to Dixon coming in to play than Leftwich, at least I don't know for a fact whether or not Dixon sucks.


Everyone of those teams have a much easier schedule than us and the Bears, Seahawks and Bills had severe injuries to qbs so quite naturally they are going to rely on the run more. And the Raiders start Jamarcus and with his inexperience you MUST lean on th run-Misleading stat.

You literally made my point for me with your attempt to argue my supposed mis-leading stat. The QB's of all those team suck (for whatever reason whether it be because they are a rookie, injured, or just plain suck). So all those teams have to rely more on the rush. So if Roethlisberger has been so bad all year, why haven't the Steelers and Parker been able to rely on the rush as well? I'll post the stat once again for you:

20th in rushing offense-Bears (Kyle Orton)
18th in rushing offense-Jaguars (David Garrard)
16th in rushing offense-Seahawks (Seneca Wallace)
16th in rushing offense-Bills (Trent Edwards)
10th in rushing offense-Raiders (JaMarcus Russell)

Every single one of those QB's are far worse than Roethlisberger could ever even try to be, yet somehow all those teams have a better run game than the Steelers. So why can the above 5 teams manage to have a better running offense than us despite who their QB's are? Say it, say because Orton, Garrard, Wallace, Edwards and Russell are better than Roethlisberger.


I think Chad is the MAJOR reason they are having that turnaround. All of the components are the same as the year before. Are you attributing the success to parcells or the new coach? I give them some credit but unlike Most Steeler fans I give players the most credit for wins and players the most blame for losses-not the coaches who never touch the field.

If you used to play the game, I apologize for the following statement if it offends you, but it's true. If you put 11 football players on the field without a head coach or coordinators than you would have 11 over-grown headless chickens running around in football uniforms. A baseball team, basketball team and hockey team could take the field of play and win competently without any form of coaching. Football players wouldn't get through half a quarter without coaching.

For you not to attribute the success of the Dolphins mainly to Parcells, the coaching staff and the offensive system put into place means you think a QB who has never had more than 23 TD's and only has 17 this year was able to turn a team around from 1-15 to 10-5. Pennington has had a GREAT year despite the classic "game manager" year. I personally don't take credit away from a QB for being a "game manager" nor do I hold "stat-padding" QB's in any higher regard than "game managing" QB's. BUT to be a game managing QB you have to be given an "offensive enterprise" by the coaching staff and you also need great "employees" around you to help. Roethlisberger has been given a 24-hour liquor store in the bad part of town and him and the defense work the graveyard shift EVERY SINGLE NIGHT.


I see in Ryan the same thing I saw in Marino when he was a rookie. A special talent. That guy has "it". To say an absolute statement like 20 of 29 qbs would have gotten ATL in the playoffs" is a stretch. We will never know. One thing we do know is that the Steelers success is due to our defense and NOT our Qb. You cant say that about Ryan. Hes a rookie with better numbers than our $100 million dollar qb who is in his 5th year and that concerns me. One qb is showing potential and growing every week and ours is well........... its ben well documented.

You see in Ryan the same thing you saw in Marino when he was a rookie? A special talent? Are you from Atlanta? Do you have the NFL package and if you do why have you watched so many Atlanta games to see how "special" Ryan is? Did you see this same "special talent" in Roethlisberger his rookie year, cause it was even better than Ryan's.


Notice on every pass he has his back foot planted. At this point the ball should be coming out (As you seen when Byron came in and relieved himl; The blitz wasnt effective once Ben left now was it?) http://www.nfl.com/videos?videoId=09000d5d80b0339e
Poise and pocket pressence is a problem for Ben and so is blitz recogniton, he is very underdeveloped in that area. You say its the line? I say its Ben

No offense, but unless you are an NFL scout, I do not feel you have the knowledge to analyze a QB's movement to the extent that you are analyzing. It's like me saying I think someone has Cancer based on how they look, I'm not a doctor, so my analysis would be both irrelevant and very most likely incorrect.

Furthermore even NFL scouts make mistakes, so comparing the analysis of an NFL scout to that of a doctor is a bad analogy considering medicine is an exact science and NFL scouting is not, professional or non professional scouting. Heck, someone thought Ryan Leaf and Michael Vick were franchise quarterbacks. How many times are PROFESSIONAL scouts wrong? And I or anyone else is supposed to accept your analysis of how Roethlisberger delivers the football and proccess' information?

Moreover! Your analysis, professional or not, correct or not, is based on 24 pass attempts from Leftwich. 24 pass attempts.


Won what? What kind of a question is that? Does the team have to have the exact rank of 24? Your kidding right? Thats like saying. Name the last qb to win with the 18th ranked running game. WTF???

If you didn't understand the question, then say so and ask me to rephrase it or explain it, don't twist the question around into whatever you interpret.

You originally said:


How many Super Bowls did Brady win w/o a running game? I can name several qbs who still had success without a running game.

to this I responded:


I personally know exactly how Brady won 2 of his 3 Superbowls. And I can name several QB's who have won without a running game also. But there is a difference between no running game and 24th ranked running game. Name the last QB that won with a 24th ranked running game.

To explain this for you, I'm saying that QB's HAVE indeed had success without a running game, I understand, but your definition of "no running game" is different from having the 24th ranked running game in the league. And I asked you to name the last time a QB won a Superbowl with a running offense ranked AS LOW as 24th. You didn't have to find an exact match, you just needed to look and see what the lowest ranked running offense was to win the Superbowl in the last 10 years. Here's the homework since you didn't feel like doing it. Superbowl winners AND LOSERS of the last 10 years;

2007-Giants ranked 4th in rush and Patriots ranked 13th
2006-Colts ranked 18th in the rush and Bears ranked 15th
2005-Steelers ranked 5th in the rush and the Seahawks ranked 3rd
2004-Patriots ranked 7th in the rush and the Eagles ranked 24th
2003-Patriots ranked 27th in the rush and the Panthers ranked 7th
2002-Bucs ranked 27th in the rush and the Raiders ranked 18th
2001-Patriots ranked 13th in the rush and Rams ranked 5th
2000-Ravens ranked 5th in the rush and the Giants ranked 11th
1999-Rams ranked 5th in the rush and Titans ranked 13th
1998-Denver ranked 2nd in the rush and the Falcons ranked 6th

So the average rushing offense ranking for the past 20 Superbowl winners and losers is 11th

Aside from the Patriots in '03 with the 27th ranked rushing offense (anyone who isn't a member of the Patriots organization, fanbase or the media knows how the Patriots won at least 2 of their 3 Superbowls whether they want to admit it or not) And '02 when the Bucs won also with the 27th ranked rushing offense, the average rushing offense ranking of the other 8 Superbowl WINNERS was 7th

I do envy the Bucs and hope we are another version of the '02 Bucs, who won the Superbowl with a very sloppy offense but with the #1 Defense in the league.

So in 10 years, out of 20 teams, only 5 have made it to the Superbowl with a rushing offense ranked at 18th in the league or lower. And only 3 teams have made it to the Superbowl with a rushing offense ranked at 24th in the league or lower.

So saying "you can name QB's who have had success without a running game" means you can name Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Rich Gannon, Brad Johnson and Donovan McNabb.


These numbers are meaningless? Of course they are to a Ben apologist. I guess 16 turnovers in 4 losses are meaningless as well? Too funny. When the Steelers win Ben gets the credit but when they lose Arians/Tomlin get the blame. I get it.
I guess we have had a bad O-line since 05 huh? Despite Willie ranking high in the league in rushing our line just sucks. Lets look at Bens sack totals and then compare them to other qbs in the league. Notice how other qbs pass TWICE as much as Ben but have considerably lower sack totals (I know I know its our line) Why is Bens sack total so high? Because its like I said before; he processes the information too slow and a sack results. I have also included Charlie Batch in the mix. Same offense, same personnel but MUCH LOWER sack totals. HMMMM

2004
Ben 295 Att 30 sacks
P.Manning 497 Att 13 sacks
Plummer 521 Att 15 sacks
Favre 540 Att 12 sacks

2005
Ben 261 Atts 23 sacks
P.Manning 453 Atts 17 sacks
C.Palmer 509 Atts 19 sacks
Brady 530 Atts 26 sacks

2006
Ben 469 Atts 46 sacks
P.Manning 557 Atts 14 sacks
Brees 554 Atts 18 sacks
Rivers 467 Atts 27 sacks

2007
Ben 404 Atts 47 sacks
P.Manning 515 Atts 21 sacks
Romo 520 Atts 24 sacks
Favre 535 Atts 15 sacks

Batch from 05-07
125 Atts 4 sacks
lets x that by 4
500 Atts 20 sacks

My response to this is that you completely ignored my original arguement made to your original arguement. And you ignored my arguement by posting the most meaningless stat imaginable; The number of times a QB has been sacked. No way of knowing who the opponent was, no way of knowing what the play at the time of the sack was, no way of knowing who was on the field, no way of knowing how long the QB had the ball for. Absolutely meaningless.

I'm going to post your original arguement and my original arguement to it. You can either answer it or not. But I won't go around in circles. If you are just going to ignore whatever point I try to make and come up with something else, then the arguement will never end and is pointless. It would be as if we were arguing with ourselves.

Your original arguement was:


The Steelers have not lost 4 games due to lack of a running game, they have lost 4 games due to BAD play from Ben not Arians. How guys can fault our receivers when they drop the ball, can fault our Coordinator when bad plays are called, can fault our Head Coach for leaving vets in, can fault our O-Line when Ben gets no time but DONT fault the qb when he plays bad. Ben makes the most money, hes the face of the organization, he has the ball in his hand the most. No single person has more control of the Steelers than Ben but he escapes the MOST blame. This is sheer Hypocrisy.

--- Added 12/25/2008 at 01:32 PM ---

2004 17 TD's 11 Ints
2005 17 TD's 9 Ints
2006 18 TD's 23 Ints
2007 30 TD's an anomaly result of a gravy schedule (Arians was the OC remember)
2008 17 TD's 14 Ints


Top 10 pass defenses Ben has faced THIS YEAR......

Eagles #2 - 50.6 - 0TD/1INT/2FUMBLES - 5.24YPA (L)
Ravens #3 - 80.4 - 1TD/1INT - 7.96 YPA (w)
Ravens #3 - 81.9 - 1TD/0INT - 6.15 YPA (W)
Giants #7 - 38.5 - 1TD/4INT - 6.52 YPA (L)
Redskins # 6 - 15.1 - 0TD/1INT - 2.94 YPA (W)
Cots #10 - 59.0 - 0TD/1INT - 6.83 YPA (L)
Cowboys #4 - 80.9 - 1TD/0INT - 6.18 YPA (W)
Titans #8 - 86.6 - 2TD/2INT/2FUMBLES - 8.20 YPA (L)

Total = 61.6 rating | 6 TD | 10 INT | 6.25 YPA
I KNOW I KNOW ITS THE LINE.... OR THE RUNNING GAME..... OR ARIANS. IF WE DIDNT HAVE THAT DEFENSE WE WOULD BE IN TROUBLE!!

my arguement to that was:


Those are nice stats, they honestly are, no sarcasm. But until you show me 5 QB's with better numbers against all the "Top 10 pass defenses" they faced in a single season then these numbers are meaningless. What are we comparing these numbers too? What is the average passer rating for a QB when he faces a top 10 pass defense? What do QB's average when they play top 10 defenses in consecutive games? Better yet, when was the last time a QB faced 7 of the top 10 pass defenses in the league in a single season?

Look up how other QB's tend to fair against top 10 defenses. Do it objectively, don't nit pick the stats. Don't post how Manning or Brady did against 1 top ten defense in their Superbowl years. Make an average from some random year of how the QB's did in games against the top 10 defense's of that entire year. highlight how the QB's who faced the top 10 defense's in consecutive games did. Or just don't bother.

Steelersfan
12-26-2008, 04:53 PM
There's far more to it than just stats alone.

The Steelers haven't been able to run the ball all year which is caused by, and leads to, many things. First let me say that this team is NOT a run first team even though they and many of us fans think they are.

The OL is crap in both run/pass blocking. Some games they have been ok but to say not one of them has played as bad as Ben is a joke.
Now I'm not going to sit here and blame one player or coach for all the faults because it has been a combination of many things and it all starts with how bad the OL is.

It kind of goes like this,

OL sucks so we can't run which leads to the D not having to stack the line which makes it hard for the WR's to get open on a consistant basis which leads to Ben holding on to the ball longer and taking a sack or making a bad decision because he is trying to make something happen. After all that you throw in some bad playing calling and WR's dropping passes and you have the Steelers offense of 2008.

It's not one person but it does all start with two things. The OL and the play calling. An OC has to be able to call plays to the players strength's which would make things somewhat better. If they fix the OL it will make up for the poor play calling. If they fix the play calling it will help make up for the poor OL.

The sooner this offense realizes that it is a pass offense the better off they will be. Open it up already with 4-5 WR sets and hit some quick short passes! Loosen the D up and you'll see some running lanes open up then.

Scalaid6
12-26-2008, 06:16 PM
[QUOTE=NYCsteelersfan;259027]For someone who loves posting stats, you do realize that Roethlisberger has an 80 QB rating right? Ranked 21st in the league, within 3 points of being ranked 16th in the league. And yet somehow you manage to say his play has been worse than all of our linemen.

When someone starts posting a player Qb rating and not Tds/ints etc That is a sign that they have NO GROUND to stand on. Since when is qb rating the basis of rating qbs? Ben has played bad this season, anyone that says different has a head injury or just stubborn or both.

I'm not going to make that long of an arguement on this one because you are getting more and more unreasonable trying to argue your point. While I actually agree about Miller, you just called Willie Parker, Santonio Holmes and Nate Washington offensive weapons. In what league? The CFL? How many drops do Ward, Washington and Holmes have? Ward is tied for 5th in the league and Holmes is tied for 6th in the league. We won't even count Washington since he's a #3 receiver and you actually called a #3 receiver an offensive weapon. Where is Parker ranked this year? Offensive weapon? If you consider these guys offensive weapons, what do you consider guys like Moss, Fitzgerald, Andre Johnson, Steve Smith, Adrian Peterson, Turner, Portis, Williams, Jacobs and Steven Jackson? Offensive nuclear weapons? Perhaps you just have a completely different definition.

Millers the least dangerous of the weapons I mentioned. Sure hes a weapon but not as dangerous as the others I mentioned. If Holmes is not a weapon why does he get doubled? He gets doubled because he has enough speed to run by his defender. I am not biased nor do I have an axe to grind so I will state facts and facts alone. Just like Ben is having a bad year, so is Holmes. Hes been a MAJOR disapointment! Uh when drops become an official stat then I will give it some merit. Drops are not as costly as ints but I see you are honest about EVERY steeler except Ben. I consider all of the guys you mentioned as weapons. I will put Willies last 3 years up against any back in the league and the stats prove HES A WEAPON. He is obviously hurt this year but I see the only player that gets a pass when hurt is Ben (If you dont think he was hurt this season you thought he was hurt in 06. Did he play up to his potential then sir?) You asked where do all the steelers rank EXCEPT Ben. Where does Ben rank sir? Do any of the Steelers get held to the same standard as our $100 million dollar qb? I forgot Ben gets ammunity from criticism.

It is the job of the media to stir up, unwarranted, idiotic controversy to increase ratings to sell more advertising. The media said the Browns were going to be good this year and that the Redskins had one of the best teams in the league. The media said Vick was a GREAT quarterback up until he got arrested. The media said Vince Young and Russell were #1 picks overall.

First of all the media (national) doesnt watch every steeler game. These articles were from Steelers fans like you and I who actually watch every game and SAW how Byron moved the offense and SAW how lathargic it was under Ben. Please explain just exactly what ratings were the media trying to increase in saying Ben should get benched? Those statements were based on Bens poor play and very warranted. Nice excuse but again it has no merit.

Leftwich has 24 attempted passes this year. 24 attempted passes. To turn around and judge a guy on 24 attempted passes and say he would be better than Roethlisberger is simply absurd. Especially since people have seen Leftwich and have seen him fail miserably elsewhere, on what was a good team. I would be 10 times more receptive to Dixon coming in to play than Leftwich, at least I don't know for a fact whether or not Dixon sucks.

Now Byron sux? I get your stance now. Everyone on the Steelers has faults except Ben. Please explain WHAT good team did Byron fail miserably. You mean the Jags? For the record Byron beat Ben and our Steelers 2-1 when he was starting and NO Byron did not fail at Jacksonville. How are those Jags doing w/o mr Leftwich? Dixon cant come in per NFL rules unless hes designated #2 and if he comes in he cant come out. LOTS of Steeler fans are JUST like you. They want dixon to play, they dont want Byron to play. What are you afraid of? What other team calls for the #3 guy? If Anderson and Quinn were healthy and the last game was meaningless do you think the Browns fans would be saying "Id like to see what Dorsey can do". I think Byron makes you guys nervous. Just my opinion. Yes he has 24 attempts and has put PRESSURE on the franchise qb in just TWENTY FOUR attempts. That just gives his stellar play more merit. Thanks for substantiating my point further, I am deeply indebted to you sir. For someone who has the facts and truth on his side you sure seem angry. Present your proof if your truthful. The truth will knock the brains out of falsehood as I am proving.

You literally made my point for me with your attempt to argue my supposed mis-leading stat. The QB's of all those team suck (for whatever reason whether it be because they are a rookie, injured, or just plain suck). So all those teams have to rely more on the rush. So if Roethlisberger has been so bad all year, why haven't the Steelers and Parker been able to rely on the rush as well? I'll post the stat once again for you:

20th in rushing offense-Bears (Kyle Orton)
18th in rushing offense-Jaguars (David Garrard)
16th in rushing offense-Seahawks (Seneca Wallace)
16th in rushing offense-Bills (Trent Edwards)
10th in rushing offense-Raiders (JaMarcus Russell)

First of all in my opinion NO Qb in the NFL sucks that is a statement of ignorance but I will forgive you. The Steelers cant run because EVERYONE takes the run away from us (8 and 9 in the box) because they dont trust that the qb can make quick decisions. Ben is in his 5th season and Coordinators are still DARING him to beat them. Remember Ken Whisenhunt and the Cards games last season? He did this to us and what happened? Ole reliable Ben through a pick in the endzone and we lost the game. Thats the book on Ben. Make him play fast and eventually he will turn it over. Didnt you hear Warren Sapp and Steve Mariucci say that "opposing players refer to Ben Roethlisberger as a double agent because he helps the other team"
Secondly, the other reason we cant run is because our starter is not 100%. If Willie doesnt play hes called FWP (Fragile Willie Parker) and if he plays hurt hes hurting the team. Once again, I agree, Willie is not running good, hes having a bad year just like Ben. But when Willie gets open field it is evident that he isn HURT what is Bens excuse sir?

Every single one of those QB's are far worse than Roethlisberger could ever even try to be, yet somehow all those teams have a better run game than the Steelers. So why can the above 5 teams manage to have a better running offense than us despite who their QB's are? Say it, say because Orton, Garrard, Wallace, Edwards and Russell are better than Roethlisberger.

Again, misleading they have a better run game THIS year due to our starter being injured but how about last season? Seasons before? Season before that? Historically? Dont think so sir. Its easy to cite stats like that. For example: Last season at this time the Pats were 15-0 why are they this year? I guess it doesnt matter that their starter is injured.

In the last 15 years we have averaged under 4 yards per carry only 3 years: 2008, 2003 and, wait for this one, 1995. This year we are averaging 3.6 ypc and in 1995 it was 3.7 ypc. In 2006 we averaged more ypc (4.2) than in 2005 (4.0). I dunno–is having a running game overrated? Didnt we go to the Super Bowl in 95?

Below is the leading Steeler rusher in each game.

vs. Philadelphia: Parker, 20 yards
vs. Baltimore: Mendenhall, 30 yards
vs. Giants: Moore, 84 yards
vs. Washington: Parker, 70 yards
vs. Indianapolis: Moore, 57 yards
vs. New England: Parker, 87 yards
vs. Dallas: Parker, 25 yards
vs. Baltimore: Parker, 47 yards
vs. Tennessee: Parker, 29 yards

0 100 yard rushers. 4 times where our leading rusher had under 30 yards total. Yikes. We’re only going to face teams with winning records in the playoffs…prepare for more running woes. 5-4 record. This is substantiation that they are DARING Ben to beat them.

If you used to play the game, I apologize for the following statement if it offends you, but it's true. If you put 11 football players on the field without a head coach or coordinators than you would have 11 over-grown headless chickens running around in football uniforms. A baseball team, basketball team and hockey team could take the field of play and win competently without any form of coaching. Football players wouldn't get through half a quarter without coaching.

Who said we dont need coaches? I said the coaches dont EXECUTE The plays, the players do. And the coaches dont make turnovers the players do. You cite how our receivers have dropped passes and I agree they do but do the drops hurt as much as the turnovers? Dont you remember in the Eagles game it was 15-6 and Byron drove the Steelers down the field to the Eagles red zone and hit Nate on the money and he dropped the td? That would have made it a one possession game. I dont blame Arians for that drop nor do I blame the coaches for Byrons bad pass on 4th down that ended that drive, I blame that on Byron and Nate.

Scalaid6
12-26-2008, 06:17 PM
For you not to attribute the success of the Dolphins mainly to Parcells, the coaching staff and the offensive system put into place means you think a QB who has never had more than 23 TD's and only has 17 this year was able to turn a team around from 1-15 to 10-5. Pennington has had a GREAT year despite the classic "game manager" year. I personally don't take credit away from a QB for being a "game manager" nor do I hold "stat-padding" QB's in any higher regard than "game managing" QB's. BUT to be a game managing QB you have to be given an "offensive enterprise" by the coaching staff and you also need great "employees" around you to help. Roethlisberger has been given a 24-hour liquor store in the bad part of town and him and the defense work the graveyard shift EVERY SINGLE NIGHT.

I dont attribute it to Parcells, sorry. Pennington gets the props there sir. Do you recall the Jets beating us last season? Thomas Jones ran hard on us and Pennington stayed the course. What is wrong with being a game manager? Thats ALL Ben has to do and we would be undefeated. Being a game manager is a good thing not a bad thing. The Dolphins personnel is basically the same as last season EXCEPT the qb. It is what it is.

You see in Ryan the same thing you saw in Marino when he was a rookie? A special talent? Are you from Atlanta? Do you have the NFL package and if you do why have you watched so many Atlanta games to see how "special" Ryan is? Did you see this same "special talent" in Roethlisberger his rookie year, cause it was even better than Ryan's.

No, I am not from Atlanta and I dont have the NFL package (what is that?). Actually, I have the Sunday ticket and Whisenhunt DID NOT let Ben do what Ryan is being asked to do. Ben seldom threw more than 20 times that year and when he did it was ALL BAD. If you dont believe me, see the AFC Championship game vs the Pats. When I viewed Ben as a rookie, I said what I say now. "He is raw, he is not poised and he stares down his target" His strength is a big arm and big body with adequate mobility. Listen to what the scouts said about Ryan coming out of College. Matt Ryan will be a stud in our league barring injury. Ben is driving a Bentley and has wrecked it 4 times this season and his insurance rates are going through the roof.
If I ask you do you think that Tomlin is doing a good job, most Steeler fans will say "He inherited a good team". I agree! But how does that apply to Tomlin and not to Ben? Isnt this the REAL reason Ben has 50 victories faster than any other qb? Its cause hes on a good team not due to HIS great play.


No offense, but unless you are an NFL scout, I do not feel you have the knowledge to analyze a QB's movement to the extent that you are analyzing. It's like me saying I think someone has Cancer based on how they look, I'm not a doctor, so my analysis would be both irrelevant and very most likely incorrect.

Furthermore even NFL scouts make mistakes, so comparing the analysis of an NFL scout to that of a doctor is a bad analogy considering medicine is an exact science and NFL scouting is not, professional or non professional scouting. Heck, someone thought Ryan Leaf and Michael Vick were franchise quarterbacks. How many times are PROFESSIONAL scouts wrong? And I or anyone else is supposed to accept your analysis of how Roethlisberger delivers the football and proccess' information?

Uh NFL Scouts assess talent they dont tell a qb how to go through his progressions, or how to make hot reads, line adjustments etc This is Qb fundamentals and can be substantiated by ANY HS, College or Pro coach. When you plant your back foot the ball should be coming out. Some of the better qbs have mastered this and thats what makes them the least sacked (Drew Brees)


Moreover! Your analysis, professional or not, correct or not, is based on 24 pass attempts from Leftwich. 24 pass attempts.

Its based on how quickly I see Byron process the info and get the ball out. Its based on how I see Ben back there looking bewildered and Byron throwin strickes like Randy Johnson. Again, the Steelers dont need a SUPER Qb, all we need is a game manager who doesnt turn the ball over and give the opposing offense extra opportunities. The Titans got 21 points off of 4 turnovers, this kills a team. They essentially got 10 points on our D but when you continuously put your Defense in bad situations it will come back to haunt you. and it did.

If you didn't understand the question, then say so and ask me to rephrase it or explain it, don't twist the question around into whatever you interpret.

You originally said:



to this I responded:



To explain this for you, I'm saying that QB's HAVE indeed had success without a running game, I understand, but your definition of "no running game" is different from having the 24th ranked running game in the league. And I asked you to name the last time a QB won a Superbowl with a running offense ranked AS LOW as 24th. You didn't have to find an exact match, you just needed to look and see what the lowest ranked running offense was to win the Superbowl in the last 10 years. Here's the homework since you didn't feel like doing it. Superbowl winners AND LOSERS of the last 10 years;

2007-Giants ranked 4th in rush and Patriots ranked 13th
2006-Colts ranked 18th in the rush and Bears ranked 15th
2005-Steelers ranked 5th in the rush and the Seahawks ranked 3rd
2004-Patriots ranked 7th in the rush and the Eagles ranked 24th
2003-Patriots ranked 27th in the rush and the Panthers ranked 7th
2002-Bucs ranked 27th in the rush and the Raiders ranked 18th
2001-Patriots ranked 13th in the rush and Rams ranked 5th
2000-Ravens ranked 5th in the rush and the Giants ranked 11th
1999-Rams ranked 5th in the rush and Titans ranked 13th
1998-Denver ranked 2nd in the rush and the Falcons ranked 6th

So the average rushing offense ranking for the past 20 Superbowl winners and losers is 11th

Aside from the Patriots in '03 with the 27th ranked rushing offense (anyone who isn't a member of the Patriots organization, fanbase or the media knows how the Patriots won at least 2 of their 3 Superbowls whether they want to admit it or not) And '02 when the Bucs won also with the 27th ranked rushing offense, the average rushing offense ranking of the other 8 Superbowl WINNERS was 7th

I do envy the Bucs and hope we are another version of the '02 Bucs, who won the Superbowl with a very sloppy offense but with the #1 Defense in the league.

So in 10 years, out of 20 teams, only 5 have made it to the Superbowl with a rushing offense ranked at 18th in the league or lower. And only 3 teams have made it to the Superbowl with a rushing offense ranked at 24th in the league or lower.

So saying "you can name QB's who have had success without a running game" means you can name Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Rich Gannon, Brad Johnson and Donovan McNabb.

There are 40 years of Super Bowls not 10 (nice try) If you had chronicled the WHOLE 42 seasons you would see that MANY teams won Super Bowls while ranked low (again MANY QBS WON WITHOUT RUNNING GAMES). Running game aside we would be 15-0 if you subtract the turnovers by our Qb, that is ONE FACT you cant try to divert attention from. Are you saying the 16 turnovers in 4 games is not the BIGGEST reason we lost? Is that what your saying sir? And how come you wont address the HIGH number of sacks that our qb is taking? In comparrison to everyone else why is HE getting sacked so much? Could it be like I said "ben processses the information too slow?". Dont worry I didnt coin the phrase. It came from no other than our ex Defensive Coordinator - Ken Whisenhunt. Ever wonder why he and Ben had a STORMY relationship? Why would Ken yell at him? Ben was quoted as saying "Ken yells at me and I dont respond well to being yelled at". Why was Whiz yelling at him? I'll tell you why "BEN GET RID OF THE DAMN BALL!!"

My response to this is that you completely ignored my original arguement made to your original arguement. And you ignored my arguement by posting the most meaningless stat imaginable; The number of times a QB has been sacked. No way of knowing who the opponent was, no way of knowing what the play at the time of the sack was, no way of knowing who was on the field, no way of knowing how long the QB had the ball for. Absolutely meaningless.

Those variables dont matter, just your latest diversionary tactic to cover up the fact that Ben has a problem. A sack is a sack no matter who your playing a sack more times than not puts your team in bad down and distance. But according to you it matters who your playing. WOW Worth noting Ben has 46 sacks THIS SEASON TOO. Do you see a pattern? I DO!

I'm going to post your original arguement and my original arguement to it. You can either answer it or not. But I won't go around in circles. If you are just going to ignore whatever point I try to make and come up with something else, then the arguement will never end and is pointless. It would be as if we were arguing with ourselves.

Your original arguement was:



my arguement to that was:



Look up how other QB's tend to fair against top 10 defenses. Do it objectively, don't nit pick the stats. Don't post how Manning or Brady did against 1 top ten defense in their Superbowl years. Make an average from some random year of how the QB's did in games against the top 10 defense's of that entire year. highlight how the QB's who faced the top 10 defense's in consecutive games did. Or just don't bother.[/QUOTE]

My concern is NOT what OTHER Qbs do against top 10 defenses my concern is what MINE does. This is your latest diversionary tactict to avert one from the fact that Ben is play bad vs good teams and who do you think we will be playing in the playoffs? Lastly, if you want to chronicle who did what against top 10 defenses then feel free to do so. You dont set any conditions on how I debate and I dont set any on how you debate. Ben is the qb of my team, this thread is about MY QB, not other ones. I posted other qbs sack totals to substantiate that Ben has a problem and its OBVIOUS to those of understanding. I even put in BUMMY Jake Plummer and he still has a lower sack total than Ben and so does BATCH. But you keep trying to throw red herrings and diversionary tactics all you want and I will pummell you with facts and visual proof as I have been doing from the outset. My proofs are complete with statistical documentation, visual evidence as well as hard facts. Most of your posts is enriched with conjecture to the 3rd power. If Ben plays up to his ability and leads us to the Super Bowl win I will be ecstatic because I'm a fan. If Ben gets hurt or benched and Byron leads us to the Super Bowl win you and others will be a little bittersweet because Ben didnt win it for us? I root for the Steelers not the Roethlisbergers or the Lefwiches, for the record

Steelersfan
12-26-2008, 06:54 PM
8 posts all in reply to someone who came here from another forum and posted the same exact topic that got them banned somehow. Amazing.

Scalaid6
12-26-2008, 07:22 PM
I dont know the poster of this thread but whats it matter? Why would posting "Its not all Bens fault" get someone banned?
Or are you referring to me? Are you upset about the truth too? If I have told ONE lie on Big Ben then please copy and paste it and show me. If your not talking about me then please disregard. Thx

Steelersfan
12-26-2008, 07:55 PM
I dont know the poster of this thread but whats it matter? Why would posting "Its not all Bens fault" get someone banned?
Or are you referring to me? Are you upset about the truth too? If I have told ONE lie on Big Ben then please copy and paste it and show me. If your not talking about me then please disregard. Thx

I was referring to you having 8 posts all in reply to one person who also just joined this forum. If you honestly don't know what I am talking about then disregard.

What truth are you talking about? That you think the OL has played better than Ben? That you say Lefty is better than Ben? That Ben gets all the breaks and everyone picks on Parker? That Ben is the sole problem with this offense?
All non-truths as far as I am concerned.
The OL sucks bad.
The WR's have dropped too many passes.
The play calling has been questionable many times throughout the season.
Ben has had some bad games but he hasn't played bad the whole season.
Are you one of those that always thinks the backup is better? By your stats alone you think Batch should be starting before Ben.

I don't like Parker because of his style and nothing more. I've always said I want him on the team, just not as the featured back and I've said that from day one. And I've also said **** about Ben and other players when they have played like crap just like a lot of members here do.

* Also, forgot to mention your comment about 8, 9 in the box to stop the run. You must be thinking of past seasons because teams haven't had to do that this year.

NYCsteelersfan
12-26-2008, 08:02 PM
I dont attribute it to Parcells, sorry. Pennington gets the props there sir. Do you recall the Jets beating us last season? Thomas Jones ran hard on us and Pennington stayed the course. What is wrong with being a game manager? Thats ALL Ben has to do and we would be undefeated. Being a game manager is a good thing not a bad thing.


I personally don't take credit away from a QB for being a "game manager" nor do I hold "stat-padding" QB's in any higher regard than "game managing" QB's. BUT to be a game managing QB you have to be given an "offensive enterprise" by the coaching staff and you also need great "employees" around you to help. Roethlisberger has been given a 24-hour liquor store in the bad part of town and him and the defense work the graveyard shift EVERY SINGLE NIGHT.

You're arguing what I said by repeating what I said using different words. Please read the post entirely or slowly before responding.


[B]No, I am not from Atlanta and I dont have the NFL package (what is that?). Actually, I have the Sunday ticket and Whisenhunt DID NOT let Ben do what Ryan is being asked to do. Ben seldom threw more than 20 times that year and when he did it was ALL BAD. If you dont believe me, see the AFC Championship game vs the Pats. When I viewed Ben as a rookie, I said what I say now. "He is raw, he is not poised and he stares down his target" His strength is a big arm and big body with adequate mobility.

Matt Ryan rookie year:

413 attempts and 255 completions in 15 games
61.7 Cmp%
3,280
7.9 yards per attempt
15 TD's and 9 INT's
1 RUSH TD
89.7 QB rating

Roethlisberger rookie year:

295 attempts 196 completions in 13+
66.4 Cmp%
2,621
8.9 yards per attempt
17 TD's and 11 TD's
1 RUSH TD
98.1 QB rating

Roethlisberger has a better Cmp%, 59 less completions, 2 more TD's and 2 more INT's, a full 1 yard more average per attempt and nearly 10 points higher on QB rating. All of this in 2.5 less games than Ryan has played.

According to your analysis Wisenhunt seldom let Roethlisberger throw more than 20 times a game. Let's clarify that. In 13 games, Roethlisberger threw the ball more than 20 times in 7 different games. Ryan has thrown more than 20 times in a game 13 times. You know why Roethlisberger only averaged 22 attempts per game that year? Cause we were 15-1! Why would he have to throw when we were winning every single game??

But you said, "that when Roethlisberger threw more than 20, it was ALL BAD". Let's take a look at that;

Roethlisberger had 20+ attempts in 7 games. In those 7 games he had:

166 attempts 117 completions
1,411 yards
70.0 Cmp%
8.5 yards per attempt
9 TD's and 4 INT's

"ALL BAD" indeed.

Now here's a real fun fact. In every single game this year that your's and ESPN's golden boy Matt Ryan has thrown more than 30 passes, the Falcons have lost. let me repeat, EVERY TIME RYAN HAS THROWN MORE THAN 30 PASSES, THE FALCONS HAVE LOST ALL 5 GAMES.

Here is another really fun fact; Only 3 times this year that Matt Ryan has thrown 25 or more passes in a game the Falcons have won. let me repeat, RYAN HAS WON ONLY 3 GAMES THIS YEAR IN WHICH HE HAS THROWN 25 OR MORE PASSES.

Just a few more fun facts;

Matt Ryan has had 5 games without a TD. He has had 5 INT's in those 5 games.
Roethlisberger had 3 games without a TD and had 3 INT's in those 3 games.

Matt Ryan has not had a single game with more than 2 TD's.
Roethlisberger did not have a single game with more than 2 TD's.

Matt Ryan has had 5 games with 2 TD's.
Roethlisberger has had 6 games with 2 TD's.


All this and you'll still sit there and say that Ryan is a "special talent" in his rookie year like Marino and that he will be a "stud" for years to come barring injuries.

Roethlisberger who outperformed Matt Ryan in his rookie year in nearly every single statistical category known to a QB was just lucky cause Wisenhunt kept a leash on him and Roethlisberger was just going along for the ride. Matt Ryan who is "lighting up" the league with his awe inspiring numbers has LEAD the Falcons to 10-5.

I'm not going to argue with you anymore. You'll say anything unreasonable you can possibly come up with and try to pass yourself off as an NFL scout in a feeble attempt to prove that Byron Leftwich and Matt Ryan are both better than Roethlisberger.

The funny part is I'm not a huge Roethlisberger fan, I can care less if he somehow he is not on the team next year and we go into the season with someone else (not Leftwich). But regardless, I know that he is in fact one of the top 5 QB's in the league. So the last thing I'm going to do is argue with someone who will actually attempt to claim that Leftwich or Matt Ryan are better than him. Especially when they constantly evade answering to key points that completely render their arguements as useless nonesense.

Good luck with cheering for the Steelers without Leftwich or someone other than Roethlisberger. I'm sure you'll still root for the Steelers regardless. :tt02:

[b]--- Added 12/26/2008 at 06:02 PM ---


8 posts all in reply to someone who came here from another forum and posted the same exact topic that got them banned somehow. Amazing.

I'm the one who got banned from Steelersfever. What exact same topic got me banned from there that I have posted here?

Steelersfan
12-26-2008, 08:29 PM
I'm the one who got banned from Steelersfever. What exact same topic got me banned from there that I have posted here?

I know you were. Sorry, was thinking the 3rd and short topic when I posted that.

The whole point was that you had your issues there and all of a sudden this person shows and only argues with you. Seemed a little odd. Was nothing towards you and is nothing towards them really if that is all they want to post about.

NYCsteelersfan
12-26-2008, 08:45 PM
I know you were. Sorry, was thinking the 3rd and short topic when I posted that.

The whole point was that you had your issues there and all of a sudden this person shows and only argues with you. Seemed a little odd. Was nothing towards you and is nothing towards them really if that is all they want to post about.

Oh ok, no problem. Every member at feverforum LOOOOOVED Roethlisberger. And this guy would rather start Leftwich over him, doubt it's one of them. Though it would be pretty funny if I was wrong.

Scalaid6
12-26-2008, 09:33 PM
I was referring to you having 8 posts all in reply to one person who also just joined this forum. If you honestly don't know what I am talking about then disregard.

I didnt notice who started the thread nor their post count.

What truth are you talking about? That you think the OL has played better than Ben? That you say Lefty is better than Ben? That Ben gets all the breaks and everyone picks on Parker? That Ben is the sole problem with this offense?
All non-truths as far as I am concerned.
The OL sucks bad.
The WR's have dropped too many passes.
The play calling has been questionable many times throughout the season.
Ben has had some bad games but he hasn't played bad the whole season.
Are you one of those that always thinks the backup is better? By your stats alone you think Batch should be starting before Ben.

First, I never said the OL wasnt bad. I agreed to all of the above. But let me ask you why did the Cowboys lose to us? Was it because of their line OR turnovers by their qb? I'd say it was turnovers by the qb. The same reason we lost 4 games this season. Is it ironic in games that Ben has managed the game and not hurt us with his turnovers we have won? Is that a coincidence? 16 turnovers in 4 games is not the line, is not receivers dropping passes and is not bad playcalling it is bad decision making by the guy with the ball in his hand the most and most control of the game - THE QB

I don't like Parker because of his style and nothing more. I've always said I want him on the team, just not as the featured back and I've said that from day one. And I've also said **** about Ben and other players when they have played like crap just like a lot of members here do.

Again, Parker is having a bad season TOO. Would you agree that he is hurt? Is Parker a 1st round draft pick or is he a UNDRAFTED FREE AGENT? Whatever, we get and have gotten from Willie is a bonus because he was never expected to produce for us at a high lever anyway. You cant say that about Ben, Mendenhall and the likes of Santonio Holmes. We expect top production from 1st rounders. Again, Willie is having a bad season but hes a rb and has a bad knee (and its obvious as hell) but if he doesnt play hes FRAGILE WILLIE and if he plays hurt hes hurting the team. You cant have it both ways.

* Also, forgot to mention your comment about 8, 9 in the box to stop the run. You must be thinking of past seasons because teams haven't had to do that this year.

Oh really? I suggest you watch the Ravens games (both), the Skins game, Cowboys, Eagles, Giants, Titans, Pats and Colts games. You will surely see the safeties not at regular depth. Did it agains Byron (skins) on the 2nd play and he beat them deep for 50.
Lastly, SHOW ME where I said Byron was better than Ben. I said he processes the info faster.... and he does. Ben is a top notch qb the thing with him is HE PLAYS UP TO POTENTIAL WHEN HE WANTS TO. I just want the guy to stop jipping the team and play good like he can every series. Anything wrong with that?
When we play the browns lets watch and see who gets the ball out quicker Ben or Byron. I guaratee the line wont be an issue when Byron is in. Get your excuses ready.

--- Added 12/26/2008 at 07:33 PM ---


You're arguing what I said by repeating what I said using different words. Please read the post entirely or slowly before responding.

I know what you said and I stand by what I said its not my fault I watch the games and you watch channel ZERO. "The NFL Package" (again. Whats that? lol)

Matt Ryan rookie year:

413 attempts and 255 completions in 15 games
61.7 Cmp%
3,280
7.9 yards per attempt
15 TD's and 9 INT's
1 RUSH TD
89.7 QB rating

Roethlisberger rookie year:

295 attempts 196 completions in 13+
66.4 Cmp%
2,621
8.9 yards per attempt
17 TD's and 11 TD's
1 RUSH TD
98.1 QB rating

Less attempts = a higher qb rating/ less picks in two more games and 118 more attempts as I said Whiz wouldnt let him beat us. They will both have rookie of the years. Lets see if Ryan fails MISERABLY in the playoffs like Ben did (Pats).,

shows
Roethlisberger has a better Cmp%, 59 less completions, 2 more TD's and 2 more INT's, a full 1 yard more average per attempt and nearly 10 points higher on QB rating. All of this in 2.5 less games than Ryan has played.

According to your analysis Wisenhunt seldom let Roethlisberger throw more than 20 times a game. Let's clarify that. In 13 games, Roethlisberger threw the ball more than 20 times in 7 different games. Ryan has thrown more than 20 times in a game 13 times. You know why Roethlisberger only averaged 22 attempts per game that year? Cause we were 15-1! Why would he have to throw when we were winning every single game??

SHOW ME where I said whisenhunt seldom let Ben throw over 20 times. I said WHEN HE DID IT WAS ALL BAD AND I CITED THE PATS GAME PLAYOFFS. Thats what I said sir. How did that game turn out sir? And we werent winning every single game. Do you recall the Cowboy game? Ben played his *** off in that game and led us to victory. But are you HONESTLY trying to say we were 15-1 because of Ben? Is that your position????? LOL

But you said, "that when Roethlisberger threw more than 20, it was ALL BAD". Let's take a look at that;

Roethlisberger had 20+ attempts in 7 games. In those 7 games he had:

166 attempts 117 completions
1,411 yards
70.0 Cmp%
8.5 yards per attempt
9 TD's and 4 INT's

"ALL BAD" indeed.

Again, your desperation is obvious. I cited the PATS game. Funny how you failed to list the actual game I refrenced how disingenuous. Somebody is getting mad. Why?


Now here's a real fun fact. In every single game this year that your's and ESPN's golden boy Matt Ryan has thrown more than 30 passes, the Falcons have lost. let me repeat, EVERY TIME RYAN HAS THROWN MORE THAN 30 PASSES, THE FALCONS HAVE LOST ALL 5 GAMES.

Your point? Ryan is a rookie and RIGHT now sees the field better than Ben, has more poise than Ben and processes the info better than Ben. FACT. So let me get this right. Its Ryans fault that the Falcons lose but its not Bens when the steelers lose? I GOT CHA! lol

Here is another really fun fact; Only 3 times this year that Matt Ryan has thrown 25 or more passes in a game the Falcons have won. let me repeat, RYAN HAS WON ONLY 3 GAMES THIS YEAR IN WHICH HE HAS THROWN 25 OR MORE PASSES.

Just a few more fun facts;

Matt Ryan has had 5 games without a TD. He has had 5 INT's in those 5 games.
Roethlisberger had 3 games without a TD and had 3 INT's in those 3 games.

Matt Ryan has not had a single game with more than 2 TD's.
Roethlisberger did not have a single game with more than 2 TD's.

Matt Ryan has had 5 games with 2 TD's.
Roethlisberger has had 6 games with 2 TD's.


All this and you'll still sit there and say that Ryan is a "special talent" in his rookie year like Marino and that he will be a "stud" for years to come barring injuries.

Roethlisberger who outperformed Matt Ryan in his rookie year in nearly every single statistical category known to a QB was just lucky cause Wisenhunt kept a leash on him and Roethlisberger was just going along for the ride. Matt Ryan who is "lighting up" the league with his awe inspiring numbers has LEAD the Falcons to 10-5.

I'm not going to argue with you anymore. You'll say anything unreasonable you can possibly come up with and try to pass yourself off as an NFL scout in a feeble attempt to prove that Byron Leftwich and Matt Ryan are both better than Roethlisberger.

The funny part is I'm not a huge Roethlisberger fan, I can care less if he somehow he is not on the team next year and we go into the season with someone else (not Leftwich). But regardless, I know that he is in fact one of the top 5 QB's in the league. So the last thing I'm going to do is argue with someone who will actually attempt to claim that Leftwich or Matt Ryan are better than him. Especially when they constantly evade answering to key points that completely render their arguements as useless nonesense.

Good luck with cheering for the Steelers without Leftwich or someone other than Roethlisberger. I'm sure you'll still root for the Steelers regardless. :tt02:

--- Added 12/26/2008 at 06:02 PM ---

Your not a Ben fan? Well I am sir! All I want him to do is play up to his potential. The potential I know he can. Its like my kids. I push them to do better and I dont make excuses for them when they underachieve. I push them to be better and thats what I want from my qb. You see when Ben does good my team does good. When Ben does bad my team does bad and I point it out. Simarily, when our OL is crap, Tomlin, wrs and Arians are you guys have no problem pointing that out but when it comes to Ben all hell breaks loose.
Again, I'm Ben fan but if he doesnt play up to his ability I will point it out just like ANY Steeler. Needs to be more objective fans like me. You should be done debating, you were done before you started the #s dont lie Ben is having a BAD season. So is willie, so is Holmes and so is the line. The whole offense is and why the leader of that offense cant get any blame is a mystery to me.
Lastly. How is Neil O'donnell the goat for throwing 2 ints in Super Bowl 30 when he was HEAVILY blitzed but Ben isnt the goat for doing the same thing? 5 turnovers vs Jags in playoffs last season, 5 vs Eagles, 4 vs Giants, 3 Vs Colts and 4 vs Titans- ALL LOSSES. So again, how is O'donnell a goat for his turnovers and Ben is not? How come it wasnt the line? or The Co ordinator (Chan Gailey). JUST CURIOUS

I'm the one who got banned from Steelersfever. What exact same topic got me banned from there that I have posted here?

Thats unfortunate sir

Steelersfan
12-26-2008, 09:37 PM
I didnt notice who started the thread nor their post count.

Fair enough.

First, I never said the OL wasnt bad. I agreed to all of the above. But let me ask you why did the Cowboys lose to us? Was it because of their line OR turnovers by their qb? I'd say it was turnovers by the qb. The same reason we lost 4 games this season. Is it ironic in games that Ben has managed the game and not hurt us with his turnovers we have won? Is that a coincidence? 16 turnovers in 4 games is not the line, is not receivers dropping passes and is not bad playcalling it is bad decision making by the guy with the ball in his hand the most and most control of the game - THE QB

I never said that turnovers haven't cost us. The turnover game is a huge part of winning in the NFL. But at the same time there have been dropped passes that were TD's or first downs that would/could have changed the way the rest of the game was played. I'm not even blaming Ben for all the INT's as there were at least a couple caused by him and Holmes not being on the same page. Who's fault is that? I don't know and that is why I don't blame just Ben for those nor do I blame him for fumbles caused by him getting blindsided because the OL sucks. I do blame him for others though and he doesn't get a free pass.


Again, Parker is having a bad season TOO. Would you agree that he is hurt? Is Parker a 1st round draft pick or is he a UNDRAFTED FREE AGENT? Whatever, we get and have gotten from Willie is a bonus because he was never expected to produce for us at a high lever anyway. You cant say that about Ben, Mendenhall and the likes of Santonio Holmes. We expect top production from 1st rounders. Again, Willie is having a bad season but hes a rb and has a bad knee (and its obvious as hell) but if he doesnt play hes FRAGILE WILLIE and if he plays hurt hes hurting the team. You cant have it both ways.

I could care less where Parker was or was not drafted. Has no bearing on anything. I expect (as do other fans) production from all players that make the team. That is what they get paid for. Parker is hurt and should not be out there right now. He is not doing himself or the team any good. I said the same thing about Ben when he smacked his head off the car. He came back too early and cost us games.

Oh really? I suggest you watch the Ravens games (both), the Skins game, Cowboys, Eagles, Giants, Titans, Pats and Colts games. You will surely see the safeties not at regular depth. Did it agains Byron (skins) on the 2nd play and he beat them deep for 50.

I watched all those games and the reason the safeties played up was because everyone said Ben's shoulder was bad and he couldn't throw it deep. I will say that Lefty's arm was stronger then and maybe he should have started a couple games earlier in the season so Ben could have rested the shoulder. The Titans game they didn't stack the line. They didn't even blitz. They didn't need to. Nor did the Ravens for the most part.

Lastly, SHOW ME where I said Byron was better than Ben. I said he processes the info faster.... and he does.

You think Lefty should be starting, does that not mean you think he is better than Ben right now?


Ben is a top notch qb the thing with him is HE PLAYS UP TO POTENTIAL WHEN HE WANTS TO. I just want the guy to stop jipping the team and play good like he can every series. Anything wrong with that?

Not a thing wrong with that. I think you would find that every Steelers fan wants Ben to play the way we all know he can play. Same thing with Parker. I would be more than happy to come on here after I have bitched about a player only to have him prove me wrong and everyone let me know it. That usually means the team has done well.

When we play the browns lets watch and see who gets the ball out quicker Ben or Byron. I guaratee the line wont be an issue when Byron is in. Get your excuses ready.

I don't make excuses for anyone. Lefty won't be any quicker at getting the ball out then Ben because he takes too long to release it. Sure he may make the reads quicker but that doesn't always translate into getting it out faster.


You're barking up the wrong tree if you think I am defending or making excuses for Ben. There is just more to his play (and the offense in whole) than the stats you post. There have been many times we could have put teams away early and never end up having this conversation but we didn't. Some of that was Ben (TO's), some was play calling (run 15 straight times from the one and never score) and some was the line not protecting or getting any push.

NYCsteelersfan
12-26-2008, 10:21 PM
I wrote:


I personally don't take credit away from a QB for being a "game manager" nor do I hold "stat-padding" QB's in any higher regard than "game managing" QB's. BUT to be a game managing QB you have to be given an "offensive enterprise" by the coaching staff and you also need great "employees" around you to help. Roethlisberger has been given a 24-hour liquor store in the bad part of town and him and the defense work the graveyard shift EVERY SINGLE NIGHT.

You responded:


I dont attribute it to Parcells, sorry. Pennington gets the props there sir. Do you recall the Jets beating us last season? Thomas Jones ran hard on us and Pennington stayed the course. What is wrong with being a game manager? Thats ALL Ben has to do and we would be undefeated. Being a game manager is a good thing not a bad thing.

You said the exact same thing I said about game managing QB's. So I responded:


You're arguing what I said by repeating what I said using different words. Please read the post entirely or slowly before responding.

To which you respnded:


I know what you said and I stand by what I said its not my fault I watch the games and you watch channel ZERO. "The NFL Package" (again. Whats that? lol)

:thinking:

--- Added 12/26/2008 at 08:21 PM ---

Matt Ryan rookie year:

413 attempts and 255 completions in 15 games
61.7 Cmp%
3,280
7.9 yards per attempt
15 TD's and 9 INT's
1 RUSH TD
89.7 QB rating

Roethlisberger rookie year:

295 attempts 196 completions in 13+
66.4 Cmp%
2,621
8.9 yards per attempt
17 TD's and 11 TD's
1 RUSH TD
98.1 QB rating


Less attempts = a higher qb rating/ less picks in two more games and 118 more attempts as I said Whiz wouldnt let him beat us. They will both have rookie of the years. Lets see if Ryan fails MISERABLY in the playoffs like Ben did (Pats).,

I just want everyone to see a more clean post showing your analysis fo the above stats.
Roethlisberger has more 2 more TD's, 2 more INT's, 59 less completions, 1 yard higher in average per attempt, 5% higher in completion%, 659 less yards and 10 point higher QB rating and this is your analysis.

DIESELMAN
12-26-2008, 10:27 PM
:popcorn2:

NYCsteelersfan
12-26-2008, 10:46 PM
SHOW ME where I said whisenhunt seldom let Ben throw over 20 times. I said WHEN HE DID IT WAS ALL BAD AND I CITED THE PATS GAME PLAYOFFS. Thats what I said sir.


Actually, I have the Sunday ticket and Whisenhunt DID NOT let Ben do what Ryan is being asked to do. Ben seldom threw more than 20 times that year and when he did it was ALL BAD.

:thinking:

Scalaid6
12-26-2008, 11:14 PM
You're barking up the wrong tree if you think I am defending or making excuses for Ben. There is just more to his play (and the offense in whole) than the stats you post. There have been many times we could have put teams away early and never end up having this conversation but we didn't. Some of that was Ben (TO's), some was play calling (run 15 straight times from the one and never score) and some was the line not protecting or getting any push.

If there is more to it then present your proof. Merely saying "Santonio and Ben wernt on the same page" is not proof its what you call conjecture. Since 2004 he has had a high sack total but its not Ben? Come on bro. I will submit more visual evidence of Mr Leftwich and you can see how this offense SHOULD be running. Notice he doesnt get happy feet and run out of the pocket? He stays in and fires the ball. This is called poise. Ben was in this SAME game in the 1st half and the offense looked like *** under his guidance. Turnovers, sacks. Is it a coincidence it stopped when he left? Hmmmm

http://www.nfl.com/videos?videoId=09000d5d80c359cd

--- Added 12/26/2008 at 09:10 PM ---


:thinking:

Dont be dishonest PUT the rest of the quote up there. I said "when Ben through more than 20 times it was all bad I CITE THE PATRIOTS GAME" Funny ole "desperate one" didnt put that part. lol

--- Added 12/26/2008 at 09:14 PM ---


I wrote:



You responded:



You said the exact same thing I said about game managing QB's. So I responded:



To which you respnded:



:thinking:

--- Added 12/26/2008 at 08:21 PM ---

Matt Ryan rookie year:

413 attempts and 255 completions in 15 games
61.7 Cmp%
3,280
7.9 yards per attempt
15 TD's and 9 INT's
1 RUSH TD
89.7 QB rating

Roethlisberger rookie year:

295 attempts 196 completions in 13+
66.4 Cmp%
2,621
8.9 yards per attempt
17 TD's and 11 TD's
1 RUSH TD
98.1 QB rating



I just want everyone to see a more clean post showing your analysis fo the above stats.
Roethlisberger has more 2 more TD's, 2 more INT's, 59 less completions, 1 yard higher in average per attempt, 5% higher in completion%, 659 less yards and 10 point higher QB rating and this is your analysis.


DIDNT HE SAY HE WAS DONE? PROVES HE SPEAKETH WITH A FORKED TONGUE
Dude, I'm a Steeler fan and I could care less about Ryan, Pennington or any other qb. Those qbs arent winning and losing my team games. Your the type of individual that throws 50 red herrings to try to divert from the facts. The fact is Ben needs to play better if we are going to win. You can talk about Matt Ryan, Nolan Ryan, Ryan O'neal or Meg Ryan for all I care I will continue to talk about BEN. And you cant stop me.:cope:

Blitz-5
12-26-2008, 11:25 PM
When Ben is on Ben is on. When he isn't... well we all know what happens. Ben reminds me alot of Brett Farve. Take or leave it but Ben is the QB for the Steelers now and for the future... and I don't have a problem with that.

Ben makes mistakes... but he does fairly well for what he has talent wise around him. The defense is awesome. However when it comes to the offensive side we all know he could use some help.

OL blows.

OL affects the running game: plus I've never been sold with FWP being the main RB.

I'm not sold with the 2 TE end set with no FB. Good formation but not for every running play. When you see Heath Miller lining up in the FB spot... that's BS. Waste of talent IMHO.

Just think in regards to the WR position. Without Ward this group would really wreak. Holmes is not having a good year compared to last season. Washington is better than C.Wilson but he has hands like Ike Taylor.

Give Ben a better OL and a reliable running game and we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Steelersfan
12-26-2008, 11:45 PM
If there is more to it then present your proof. Merely saying "Santonio and Ben wernt on the same page" is not proof its what you call conjecture. Since 2004 he has had a high sack total but its not Ben? Come on bro. I will submit more visual evidence of Mr Leftwich and you can see how this offense SHOULD be running. Notice he doesnt get happy feet and run out of the pocket? He stays in and fires the ball. This is called poise. Ben was in this SAME game in the 1st half and the offense looked like *** under his guidance. Turnovers, sacks. Is it a coincidence it stopped when he left? Hmmmm

http://www.nfl.com/videos?videoId=09000d5d80c359cd

I'm at work right now so can't watch the video you posted.
I don't need to show proof. Just go watch the games. When Holmes goes one way or stops and Ben throws the other way or deep, they aren't on the same page period. This OL has been crap the past couple years and we haven't upgraded the WR position either so ya, Ben has been sacked. You blame Ben, I blame the play of the OL and WR's not able to get open on a consistant basis. Now this year you can add the lack of a run game too. Every QB will have his share of sacks and INT's but they aren't always the fault of said QB. Some are yes, but not all.




DIDNT HE SAY HE WAS DONE? PROVES HE SPEAKETH WITH A FORKED TONGUE
Dude, I'm a Steeler fan and I could care less about Ryan, Pennington or any other qb. Those qbs arent winning and losing my team games. Your the type of individual that throws 50 red herrings to try to divert from the facts. The fact is Ben needs to play better if we are going to win. You can talk about Matt Ryan, Nolan Ryan, Ryan O'neal or Meg Ryan for all I care I will continue to talk about BEN. And you cant stop me.:cope:

Now that I can agree with. Ben (and everyone else) has to step it up this time of year for them to win.



When Ben is on Ben is on. When he isn't... well we all know what happens. Ben reminds me alot of Brett Farve. Take or leave it but Ben is the QB for the Steelers now and for the future... and I don't have a problem with that.

Ben makes mistakes... but he does fairly well for what he has talent wise around him. The defense is awesome. However when it comes to the offensive side we all know he could use some help.

OL blows.

OL affects the running game: plus I've never been sold with FWP being the main RB.

I'm not sold with the 2 TE end set with no FB. Good formation but not for every running play. When you see Heath Miller lining up in the FB spot... that's BS. Waste of talent IMHO.

Just think in regards to the WR position. Without Ward this group would really wreak. Holmes is not having a good year compared to last season. Washington is better than C.Wilson but he has hands like Ike Taylor.

Give Ben a better OL and a reliable running game and we wouldn't be having this discussion.

:plus1: I couldn't agree with you more!

Scalaid6
12-27-2008, 02:14 AM
Its so FUNNY that for EVERY mistake or screwup by Ben there is 3 EXCUSES for it. I have watched every game of Bens career and trust me the guy has potential. But since he got that contract Ben has been calling Coach Arians "Bruce". Calling Coach Tomlin "Mike" (notice hes the ONLY one on the team to do that disrespectful crap?)
What will you guys say about the line when its not an issue when Byron is Quarterbacking Sunday? "They were in prevent "(Like the Eagles game- NOT). "It was a meaningless game"- Browns want to beat us. "The O-line played relaxed as there was no pressure". Like I said, I have watched EVERY game of Bens career and the man has a weakness in processing the information quickly. You ever notice how he ALWAYS snaps the ball at :01 or :00? Takes him that long to read the D, call the line adjustments and hot routes. This is a BIG advantage for the Defense.
You guy have been watching this offense underachieve all season and what do I hear? The wrs are bunk, the Line is garbage, the coordinator sux and THIS is the reason Ben is having a bad year. Did someone say "Give Ben a good OL and we wouldnt be having this discussion?" LOL Thats ANY NFL Qb sir. Who cant pass when they have time? The test and measure of a qb is what he does under DURRESS. Ben cracks under durress (did you see that fumble on the 1 last week? Did he take a shot? NO.) I guess that was the OLines fault.
Remember when Byron gets in with the SAME personnel. GET YOUR EXCUSES READY.

--- Added 12/27/2008 at 12:14 AM ---

Oh yeah, I always hear "Ben is our qb of the future and hes going nowhere". This is the most ignorant statement and I say that with respect. The NFL contract is the worst of all major sports. There are no GUARANTEES on NFL contracts! The only Guarantee is the signing bonus. Whats franchise qb Leftwich doing? How about Vince Young? How many years was franchise qb and two time MVP Kurt Warner a backup? How about Ryan Leaf? How about Joe Montana (Sent packing to KC because his backup Steve Young was younger and better). How about Brett Favre? How about Jake Plummer? Before you guys utter such nonsense you better get a grip on reality. There is no Guarantees in the NFL. And before someone says the Steelers are different you better recall Kordell and his contract..... what happened?

Steelersfan
12-27-2008, 03:04 AM
Its so FUNNY that for EVERY mistake or screwup by Ben there is 3 EXCUSES for it. I have watched every game of Bens career and trust me the guy has potential. But since he got that contract Ben has been calling Coach Arians "Bruce". Calling Coach Tomlin "Mike" (notice hes the ONLY one on the team to do that disrespectful crap?)
What will you guys say about the line when its not an issue when Byron is Quarterbacking Sunday? "They were in prevent "(Like the Eagles game- NOT). "It was a meaningless game"- Browns want to beat us. "The O-line played relaxed as there was no pressure". Like I said, I have watched EVERY game of Bens career and the man has a weakness in processing the information quickly. You ever notice how he ALWAYS snaps the ball at :01 or :00? Takes him that long to read the D, call the line adjustments and hot routes. This is a BIG advantage for the Defense.
You guy have been watching this offense underachieve all season and what do I hear? The wrs are bunk, the Line is garbage, the coordinator sux and THIS is the reason Ben is having a bad year. Did someone say "Give Ben a good OL and we wouldnt be having this discussion?" LOL Thats ANY NFL Qb sir. Who cant pass when they have time? The test and measure of a qb is what he does under DURRESS. Ben cracks under durress (did you see that fumble on the 1 last week? Did he take a shot? NO.) I guess that was the OLines fault.
Remember when Byron gets in with the SAME personnel. GET YOUR EXCUSES READY.

--- Added 12/27/2008 at 12:14 AM ---

Oh yeah, I always hear "Ben is our qb of the future and hes going nowhere". This is the most ignorant statement and I say that with respect. The NFL contract is the worst of all major sports. There are no GUARANTEES on NFL contracts! The only Guarantee is the signing bonus. Whats franchise qb Leftwich doing? How about Vince Young? How many years was franchise qb and two time MVP Kurt Warner a backup? How about Ryan Leaf? How about Joe Montana (Sent packing to KC because his backup Steve Young was younger and better). How about Brett Favre? How about Jake Plummer? Before you guys utter such nonsense you better get a grip on reality. There is no Guarantees in the NFL. And before someone says the Steelers are different you better recall Kordell and his contract..... what happened?

Seriously, do you not think the rest of us have watched every game? I can say I have for quite a long time and that's includes Ben's career. Someone states a fact about something that is NOT his fault and you think it is an excuse. You go ahead and take Lefty. He would do no better and more likely worse behind this line for a whole season. Have you forgotten some of the Jags teams he played on? They had a good OL, a good running game and a good D. Where did that get them? 2nd place behind the Colts every year. Ben had a good D, good running game, good OL and "helped" us win a super bowl. ****, I'll give you this OL and Parker and see where that gets you! And takes Airhead while you're at it!!

There are QB's playing behind far better lines this year and they aren't as good as Ben. He is under pressure all the time and has done fairly well with it. You might want to go watch a replay of that fumble at the one because he did take a shot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5isc_NKOOs
Ya, reallity check for you sir. Or you can keep living in your little dream world with Lefty who will get you no where.

If you can't see that the OL sucks, the run game sucks, defenders are dropping back into coverage which leads to most of this offense's problems then I don't know what games you have been watching, but it weren't the Steelers.

Let's just put Lefty in there because he will fix everything. Keep dreaming.

Koopa
12-27-2008, 03:44 AM
this thread is to long but i think i saw that someone thinks leftwich is better then ben........... whoever thinks that is a ****ing retard........... leftwich is a back up for a reason....... he ****ing sucks at life, sure he came in a few times and played ok but as a full time starter he has shown to be nothing more then an injury prone failure............... while i hate ben, he is a decent qb especially since he has had ****** coaches his whole nfl career, cowher babied him, and arians doesn't have a clue, i'd blame tomlin but he lets his assistant coaches coach so it's not totally his fault, but soon it will be if continues to let arians call plays........... ben may be the stupider then terry bradshaw and **** all the stats they mean nothing in the end, ben is a winner and that's something leftwich will never be.........

also ppl stop using willie is hurt bs, he isn't hurt, he just ****ing sucks, i hope browns kill him sunday so he won't hurt us in the playoffs.............

DIESELMAN
12-27-2008, 04:00 AM
i'd blame tomlin but he lets his assistant coaches coach so it's not totally his fault, but soon it will be if continues to let arians call plays...........
I'm with you on that. Tomlin sooner then later needs to show the size of his cajones to everyone when it comes to play calling. Don't know if he has done that or not but by the looks of BA's play calling, he hasn't. I could've swore Tomlin came into Pittsburgh with the philosophy of running the ball and using Ben to his strengths. If thats the case, then why the hell did he keep BA on as OC? Maybe he didn't know that BA has a revulsion to the running game? Switch BA over to QB coach or just fire his *** already, get rid of Anderson and hire a OC that will put into place schemes and game plans that fit and utilize the talent we have on this team.

Steelersfan
12-27-2008, 04:07 AM
Yup, Ben sucks and we should play Lefty........


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Z5dqelV_8s

Scalaid6
12-27-2008, 04:44 AM
Show me where I said Byron was better than Ben. Byron is a backup for a reason. So was Kurt warner, Kerry Collins and Gus Ferrotte too. Howd Kerry the backup look against our team? I think he looked better than Ben sir. I never said Byron was better than Ben I said he PROCESSES THE INFO QUICKER AND IS A BETTER PASSSER and he is. We will see come Sunday. Again, Get your excuses ready. Look at all the hatred in Steeler land for Byron (I told you Byron has them nervous) lol

JensK
12-27-2008, 04:46 AM
Show me where I said Byron was better than Ben. Byron is a backup for a reason. So was Kurt warner, Kerry Collins and Gus Ferrotte too. Howd Kerry the backup look against our team? I think he looked better than Ben sir. I never said Byron was better than Ben I said he PROCESSES THE INFO QUICKER AND IS A BETTER PASSSER and he is. We will see come Sunday. Again, Get your excuses ready. Look at all the hatred in Steeler land for Byron (I told you Byron has them nervous) lol

Better passer, no.. He does throw harder though.

Scalaid6
12-27-2008, 04:59 AM
Ed Bouchette said the playcalling is 60/40 60% Arians and 40% Ben. How do you know WHO is calling what plays? You guys are blaming Arians for plays Ben could have called. For all of you that SAY you watche every game. Watch the Cowboy game and hear Phil Simms say "What I learned in my Friday Meeting with Ben Roethlisberger is that 75% of the time he doesnt even hear Offensive Coordinator Bruce Arians in his ear. Ben is calling most of the plays". Nobody heard that now did they? I will go back and watch that game and tell you ALL the EXACT time and quarter where he said that. Whats the excuse now? You all say Arians is a idiot so I guess you can apply that idiot label to your stud qb because HES calling alot of the plays. Howd you like those audibles he called in the Titans game. LOSS OF 2, LOSS OF 2, LOSS OF 2. I know I know it was the lines fault, it was Willies fault. I know.

--- Added 12/27/2008 at 02:53 AM ---


Yup, Ben sucks and we should play Lefty........


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Z5dqelV_8s

Do you think Ben sucks? Maybe thats in your subconscious because I certainly didnt say that. Boy there sure is alot of HATRED for Byron. WOW.

--- Added 12/27/2008 at 02:59 AM ---


this thread is to long but i think i saw that someone thinks leftwich is better then ben........... whoever thinks that is a ****ing retard........... leftwich is a back up for a reason....... he ****ing sucks at life, sure he came in a few times and played ok but as a full time starter he has shown to be nothing more then an injury prone failure............... while i hate ben, he is a decent qb especially since he has had ****** coaches his whole nfl career, cowher babied him, and arians doesn't have a clue, i'd blame tomlin but he lets his assistant coaches coach so it's not totally his fault, but soon it will be if continues to let arians call plays........... ben may be the stupider then terry bradshaw and **** all the stats they mean nothing in the end, ben is a winner and that's something leftwich will never be.........

also ppl stop using willie is hurt bs, he isn't hurt, he just ****ing sucks, i hope browns kill him sunday so he won't hurt us in the playoffs.............

Willie is not hurt? Ok you officially have ZERO credibility

JensK
12-27-2008, 09:51 AM
Ed Bouchette said the playcalling is 60/40 60% Arians and 40% Ben. How do you know WHO is calling what plays? You guys are blaming Arians for plays Ben could have called. For all of you that SAY you watche every game. Watch the Cowboy game and hear Phil Simms say "What I learned in my Friday Meeting with Ben Roethlisberger is that 75% of the time he doesnt even hear Offensive Coordinator Bruce Arians in his ear. Ben is calling most of the plays". Nobody heard that now did they? I will go back and watch that game and tell you ALL the EXACT time and quarter where he said that. Whats the excuse now? You all say Arians is a idiot so I guess you can apply that idiot label to your stud qb because HES calling alot of the plays. Howd you like those audibles he called in the Titans game. LOSS OF 2, LOSS OF 2, LOSS OF 2. I know I know it was the lines fault, it was Willies fault. I know.

--- Added 12/27/2008 at 02:53 AM ---



Do you think Ben sucks? Maybe thats in your subconscious because I certainly didnt say that. Boy there sure is alot of HATRED for Byron. WOW.

--- Added 12/27/2008 at 02:59 AM ---



Willie is not hurt? Ok you officially have ZERO credibility

Willie is not hurt anymore. Hes been injured most of the season, but he is not injured anymore.

Scalaid6
12-27-2008, 12:27 PM
This is a healthy Wille Parker. Have you seen him running this fast lately? I havent and thats an indication that hes still hurt (hint: he will need surgery after the season)
http://www.nfl.com/videos?videoId=09000d5d80a9f3ba

Willie is what he is. The guy isnt great, hes just fast. He has poor vision but is a gutty tough little back. Take away his speed and you have what you currently see. A struggling running back. You guys are on the money about EVERY Steeler (Arians, Willie, receivers, Line) and you get no arguement from me. BUT
How come you guys wont answer my question? How can Tony Romo turn the ball over 5 times vs us and be the reason Dallas lost (Consensus). Neil O'donnell throws 2 picks in the Super Bowl and hes the reason we lost but Ben turns the ball over 5 times vs Eagles, 4times vs Giants, 3 times vs Colts and 4 Times vs Titans and its "not all his fault"
I dont get this double standard can someone explain that to me? Thx

Steelersfan
12-27-2008, 12:56 PM
This is a healthy Wille Parker. Have you seen him running this fast lately? I havent and thats an indication that hes still hurt (hint: he will need surgery after the season)
http://www.nfl.com/videos?videoId=09000d5d80a9f3ba

Willie is what he is. The guy isnt great, hes just fast. He has poor vision but is a gutty tough little back. Take away his speed and you have what you currently see. A struggling running back. You guys are on the money about EVERY Steeler (Arians, Willie, receivers, Line) and you get no arguement from me. BUT
How come you guys wont answer my question? How can Tony Romo turn the ball over 5 times vs us and be the reason Dallas lost (Consensus). Neil O'donnell throws 2 picks in the Super Bowl and hes the reason we lost but Ben turns the ball over 5 times vs Eagles, 4times vs Giants, 3 times vs Colts and 4 Times vs Titans and its "not all his fault"
I dont get this double standard can someone explain that to me? Thx

And where did anyone say those losses weren't on Ben? Seriously, get over it already. All four losses were on Ben but they were also on others as well. Nobody can say anything about this topic without you crying their making excuses. An for every video you show of someone playing well I can show you one of Ben playing well. There was a very heated debate here back around the Eagles game and on that Ben should sit for awhile so nobody is giving him a free pass.

I never once hated on Lefty. You seem to think he should be starting and I disagree with you. Oh wait, you never said he was better then Ben, right? But you only say he can read faster.....blah....blah but yet you don't want him starting? WTF?

And as far as the play calling I blame both. More the OC though because it is his job to run the offense how he see's fit. Whether it be him or Ben calling the plays he is the one that is responsible.


**edit, I cleaned up this thread because it was a good one till it went south and Diesel had to remove it. If this thread continues on can we try to keep it clean here all! - TG

NYCsteelersfan
12-28-2008, 11:28 PM
this thread is to long but i think i saw that someone thinks leftwich is better then ben........... whoever thinks that is a ****ing retard........... leftwich is a back up for a reason....... he ****ing sucks at life, sure he came in a few times and played ok but as a full time starter he has shown to be nothing more then an injury prone failure............... while i hate ben, he is a decent qb especially since he has had ****** coaches his whole nfl career, cowher babied him, and arians doesn't have a clue, i'd blame tomlin but he lets his assistant coaches coach so it's not totally his fault, but soon it will be if continues to let arians call plays........... ben may be the stupider then terry bradshaw and **** all the stats they mean nothing in the end, ben is a winner and that's something leftwich will never be.........

also ppl stop using willie is hurt bs, he isn't hurt, he just ****ing sucks, i hope browns kill him sunday so he won't hurt us in the playoffs.............

lol agree with all

Scalaid6
12-28-2008, 11:36 PM
@Koopa,
What you wished on Willie happened to Ben.

--- Added 12/28/2008 at 09:36 PM ---

Pretty much all I said about Ben/Byron materialized today. Im not one to toot my own horn but... BEEP BEEP

NYCsteelersfan
12-29-2008, 12:01 AM
@Koopa,
What you wished on Willie happened to Ben.

--- Added 12/28/2008 at 09:36 PM ---

Pretty much all I said about Ben/Byron materialized today. Im not one to toot my own horn but... BEEP BEEP

Literally meaningless game against the Cleveland Browns. QUACK QUACK

Scalaid6
12-29-2008, 01:09 AM
Of course it was meaningless to US but was it meaningless to them? Do you think they didnt want to win? What did our coach say? "Were playing to win" Ben plays mediocre, Byron comes in and plays well so in an attempt to diminish what Byron did the game is renderend meaningless. :yellowthumb:

Koopa
12-29-2008, 01:23 AM
@Koopa,
What you wished on Willie happened to Ben.

--- Added 12/28/2008 at 09:36 PM ---

Pretty much all I said about Ben/Byron materialized today. Im not one to toot my own horn but... BEEP BEEP


it was against the browns ****tard........... if this bum has to be relied in the playoffs, it will be like his whole nfl career.......... a complete failure

and what i wished didn't happen to ben, cause i wished for a career ender, this was just a game ender

Scalaid6
12-29-2008, 01:27 AM
How did Ben do against those Browns sir? The Browns are sorry enough to hurt our Starting qb and good enough to pick him off sir. I told you to get your excuses ready for Byrons success and you have. Any objective person can read this whole thread and pretty much what I said about Both guys happened today and this season. Hating is a disease...... Have you taken your meds today?

Koopa
12-29-2008, 01:31 AM
dude, it's not an excuse, it was teh ****ing browns....... ben is just a ****ing dumb ***, that's why he always gets picked off...........but **** stats, in the end he wins games, leftwich has been a complete failure as a starting qb in his nfl career, he's probably more injury prone then ben is, and that's because he's a ****ing statue, did you see that td run?? had it not been the browns there's now way his slow motion *** would have scored.......... if he is starting in the playoffs the steelers will lose, we ain't winning the superbowl with ben, but with ben we'd make it to the afc championship, byron will fail like he always has

Scalaid6
12-29-2008, 01:41 AM
For the record Byron has a winning record as a starter sir. If your going to call someone a failure then please look up the definition and you will find that your wrong....again.
Ben is not dumb he just makes bad decisions. I find it humorous when someone who cant engage in dialogue without cursing but yet calls someone dumb. Curse words are filler words for those who lack vocabulary fyi

--- Added 12/28/2008 at 11:41 PM ---

popstaala
12-29-2008, 01:42 AM
ben sucks end of story

Im a steeler fan... i apologize for saying that your precious big ben sucks... he is the "face of the franchise" as some of you said... and so is vince young... who is benched for kerry collins "the statue". I wish we have a kerry collins... oops we have leftwich.. he plays like collins, release the ball like collins, hes a statue like collins.
whats wrong with putting ben on the bench when he stinks? the titans can win without vince young, that guy from minnesota stepped in out of nowhere and lead their team to the playoffs....matt cassel put up some numbers behind tom brady(i still think tom is 10 times better).. remember that all of this teams have franchise QB just like ben... the only difference is that they know what is best for their team.....and if it wasnt for all of you ben suckhiscock fans.... we would have done what is best for the team... leftwich has proven himself three times already that he can work with our line and recivers... now stop arguing about this already... and put lefty in the game... :cope:

Koopa
12-29-2008, 01:44 AM
what has he done in the playoffs again?? again complete failure.............. ben may have had ****** stats in the superbowl but he made plays when they needed to be made, because even though he's dumber then terry bradshaw, he's a winner

Scalaid6
12-29-2008, 01:45 AM
Im a steeler fan... i apologize for saying that your precious big ben sucks... he is the "face of the franchise" as some of you said... and so is vince young... who is benched for kerry collins "the statue". I wish we have a kerry collins... oops we have leftwich.. he plays like collins, release the ball like collins, hes a statue like collins.
whats wrong with putting ben on the bench when he stinks? the titans can win without vince young, that guy from minnesota stepped in out of nowhere and lead their team to the playoffs....matt cassel put up some numbers behind tom brady(i still think tom is 10 times better).. remember that all of this teams have franchise QB just like ben... the only difference is that they know what is best for their team.....and if it wasnt for all of you ben suckhiscock fans.... we would have done what is best for the team... leftwich has proven himself three times already that he can work with our line and recivers... now stop arguing about this already... and put lefty in the game... :cope:


Ben could throw 6 picks and have 4 fumbles and MOST of these guys would blame the line and Arians for it all. When it comes to that guy no mattter how lathargic he plays, he can do no wrong. I find it humorous

Koopa
12-29-2008, 01:49 AM
Ben could throw 6 picks and have 4 fumbles and MOST of these guys would blame the line and Arians for it all. When it comes to that guy no mattter how lathargic he plays, he can do no wrong. I find it humorous

you obviously have never read my post outside this thread.......... i almost hate ben more then i hate willie parker, but the fact that someone would imply a dude that has done nothing but get hurt in his nfl career is better is just plain dumb

Scalaid6
12-29-2008, 01:49 AM
what has he done in the playoffs again?? again complete failure.............. ben may have had ****** stats in the superbowl but he made plays when they needed to be made, because even though he's dumber then terry bradshaw, he's a winner

So let me get this right. When we lose its not Bens fault but when we win he gets the credit? I know head to head Byron is up 2-1 over Ben (failure). How about Ben is on a better team than Byron was on so the success rate is higher. Why are you talking about the past? Whos playing better THIS year? You have to go back to 05 for Ben? WOW Howd Ben play in the playoffs last sesaon vs the Jags? Let me remind you FIVE TURNOVERS! But I know I know it wasnt Bens fault it was Tomlins (shouldnt have went for 2) and Arians fault etc.

Scalaid6
12-29-2008, 01:56 AM
you obviously have never read my post outside this thread.......... i almost hate ben more then i hate willie parker, but the fact that someone would imply a dude that has done nothing but get hurt in his nfl career is better is just plain dumb

I really dont care how you feel about Ben how is that rellevant? You say Byron has done nothing but get injured his whole career shows the extent of your football knowledge. Whos injured now Byron or Ben? How did Byron get in the 3 games this season sir? Was Ben healthy or injured? How many times has ben been injured in his career? WOW

Koopa
12-29-2008, 01:57 AM
So let me get this right. When we lose its not Bens fault but when we win he gets the credit? I know head to head Byron is up 2-1 over Ben (failure). How about Ben is on a better team than Byron was on so the success rate is higher. Why are you talking about the past? Whos playing better THIS year? You have to go back to 05 for Ben? WOW Howd Ben play in the playoffs last sesaon vs the Jags? Let me remind you FIVE TURNOVERS! But I know I know it wasnt Bens fault it was Tomlins (shouldnt have went for 2) and Arians fault etc.

byron hasn't played a full game, you can't take what he's done in five games where he never had pressure to win cause teh games had been decided............ he's 1-1 against ben, tommy maddox played in the other game

Scalaid6
12-29-2008, 02:00 AM
byron hasn't played a full game, you can't take what he's done in five games where he never had pressure to win cause teh games had been decided............ he's 1-1 against ben, tommy maddox played in the other game

GET YOUR EXCUSES READY AND YOU HAVE. LOL

Koopa
12-29-2008, 02:02 AM
GET YOUR EXCUSES READY AND YOU HAVE. LOL

i never knew facts meant excuses................

BlacknGold Bleeder
12-29-2008, 02:04 AM
because Lefty has had success coming in for an injured STARTER that makes him better ?? I think not Do you really believe that if Tomlin thought that Lefty was better he would not start him? There now it's the coaches fault...

Scalaid6
12-29-2008, 02:04 AM
i never knew facts meant excuses................

I told you yesterday what would happen when Byron got in now THATS a fact.:banana:

DIESELMAN
12-29-2008, 02:17 AM
I told you yesterday what would happen when Byron got in now THATS a fact.:banana:
What do you want a cookie? Your opinion on Ben is your opinion just like everyone else here. Don't try and cram it down everyones throat with your stats. Some people look at stats as a measuring stick others don't. Deep down inside, you know your right, that doesn't mean your right, doesn't mean your wrong or anyone else here for that matter. It is what it is, we are all Steeler fans here and thats all that matters.....

Scalaid6
12-29-2008, 02:25 AM
No I dont want a cookie. I want guys to stop making excuses for our starters poor play. You are right we are ALL Steelers fans so if thats the case why the bad words and feelings for leftwich just because he is playing good? Isnt Byron a Steeler? Ben is the one losing games and turning the ball over. If your a Steeler fan wouldnt you want the guy in who give us the best chance to win? If thats Byron why is that a bad thing? If thats Ben why is that a bad thing?

--- Added 12/29/2008 at 12:25 AM ---


because Lefty has had success coming in for an injured STARTER that makes him better ?? I think not Do you really believe that if Tomlin thought that Lefty was better he would not start him? There now it's the coaches fault...

As I said yesterday. Ben does SOME things better than Byron and Byron does some things better than Ben. Byron processes the information quicker than Ben and he makes better decisions. I have never said he was better than Ben. Thats the problem with Ben, hes inconsistent and has been since he got that contract. Our last FIVE losses have been because of Bens turnovers (Jags-5, Giants-4,Eagles-5,Colts-3 and Titans-4) I dont think Byron would have made that many and therefore I believe we would have won. Turnovers KILL a team as the turnover today proved. We were in position to get some points and Bens pick not only killed the drive but didnt render any points. Ben is 5 years into his career and shouldnt be making miscues like this, it hurts my team

DIESELMAN
12-29-2008, 02:31 AM
No I dont want a cookie. I want guys to stop making excuses for our starters poor play. You are right we are ALL Steelers fans so if thats the case why the bad words and feelings for leftwich just because he is playing good? Isnt Byron a Steeler? Ben is the one losing games and turning the ball over. If your a Steeler fan wouldnt you want the guy in who give us the best chance to win? If thats Byron why is that a bad thing? If thats Ben why is that a bad thing?


Well the excuses are never going to stop no matter what. Many of us know Ben is causing us to lose games and put a lot more on the defense then necessary. Ben has proven despite this season that he is the starting QB for the Steelers, no matter what Byron does as a relief pitcher.

popstaala
12-29-2008, 02:55 AM
Well the excuses are never going to stop no matter what. Many of us know Ben is causing us to lose games and put a lot more on the defense then necessary. Ben has proven despite this season that he is the starting QB for the Steelers, no matter what Byron does as a relief pitcher.

you are such a ben suckhiscock fan... if ben plays for the eagles he would be warming the bench everyday..

DIESELMAN
12-29-2008, 03:03 AM
you are such a ben suckhiscock fan... if ben plays for the eagles he would be warming the bench everyday..
and your such a Byron giveittomeuptheass fan.......Byron is on his 3rd team for a reason retard....I can name call with the best of em **** face....do you really want to try my asshat? goes both ways shitforbrains.....I've been talking on this topic with you and Scalaid or whatever the **** his name is for the past day or two, we've disagreed on just about everything. Your next post had better have some substance to it besides calling people names or "Ben sucks"......Can you manage that?

AZ_Steeler
12-29-2008, 03:08 AM
There is nothing wrong with disagreeing about a topic but if you're going to disagree then have something to back it up with and DO NOT RESORT TO NAME CALLING!

Name calling and disrespecting another member is the fastest way to get yourself 86'd around here...

This is a message to everyone... if you feel like it's addressed to you then you probably have a guilty conscience and realize this message was intended for you!

popstaala
12-29-2008, 03:21 AM
and your such a Byron giveittomeuptheass fan.......Byron is on his 3rd team for a reason retard....I can name call with the best of em **** face....do you really want to try my asshat? goes both ways shitforbrains.....I've been talking on this topic with you and Scalaid or whatever the **** his name is for the past day or two, we've disagreed on just about everything. Your next post had better have some substance to it besides calling people names or "Ben sucks"......Can you manage that?

my bad bro i was trying to make a point.. like i put on my last post, "if it wasnt for all you ben suckhiscock fans" i didnt try to call names... i meant that fans keeps on praising him even though he single handedly give away a game... and pls dont come up with
1: the o line cant block BS/ they can block for lefty/if he release the ball this wont even be an issue
2: Arians playcalling sucks/ ben call audibles most of the time
3:Ben is hurt bull/ put him on the bench then/if he release the ball he wont get hurt as much
4:Ben trying to extent the play/ release the ball please...

dont get me wrong bro.. like i said before i want what every fan wants.. a win

DIESELMAN
12-29-2008, 03:32 AM
my bad bro i was trying to make a point.. like i put on my last post, "if it wasnt for all you ben suckhiscock fans" i didnt try to call names... i meant that fans keeps on praising him even though he single handedly give away a game... and pls dont come up with
1: the o line cant block BS/ they can block for lefty/if he release the ball this wont even be an issue
2: Arians playcalling sucks/ ben call audibles most of the time
3:Ben is hurt bull/ put him on the bench then/if he release the ball he wont get hurt as much
4:Ben trying to extent the play/ release the ball please...

dont get me wrong bro.. like i said before i want what every fan wants.. a win
Truthfully, I'm not praising Ben, he does cost us games with his turnovers and taking sacks. Just don't see Byron, no matter what he's done this year filling in, to lead us to the SB. It was Ben that conjured up that 92 yd game winning drive against the Ratbirds. Thats the Ben I see running this team and thats the Ben I believe is still ready to play. You guys have made good points, go see post #33 (http://www.steeleraddicts.com/forum/showpost.php?p=258780&postcount=33).....

popstaala
12-29-2008, 03:42 AM
Truthfully, I'm not praising Ben, he does cost us games with his turnovers and taking sacks. Just don't see Byron, no matter what he's done this year filling in, to lead us to the SB. It was Ben that conjured up that 92 yd game winning drive against the Ratbirds. Thats the Ben I see running this team and thats the Ben I believe is still ready to play. You guys have made good points, go see post #33 (http://www.steeleraddicts.com/forum/showpost.php?p=258780&postcount=33).....

we all made good points.. :tt02: afterall its just fans blogging.. it wont change a damn thing... or put scores on the board... i have my beliefs on what is best and you have yours... GO STEELERS... that will be my last post on this topic:tt02:

Scalaid6
12-29-2008, 06:14 AM
A lil off topic but this came up yesterday about Chad Pennington. I guess he had nothing to do with that win vs the Jets huh? I'm killin that guy (Nyc) lol

augustashark
12-29-2008, 06:33 AM
it was against the browns ****tard........... if this bum has to be relied in the playoffs, it will be like his whole nfl career.......... a complete failure

and what i wished didn't happen to ben, cause i wished for a career ender, this was just a game ender

WOW!

I guess somethings never change around here. You stay classy koopa.

Stairwayto7
12-29-2008, 09:08 AM
Ben has had a rough season, hell even the browns got to him. But he will be fine, he is our QB for along time I hope. Leftwich is a very good backup, not a starter. Also Leftwich needs some finesse, eveything he throws, is with everything that he has!

ejsteeler
12-29-2008, 11:56 AM
I think it would be prudent to revisit the name of this thread......Wasn't all Big Bens fault

The name implies that it is infact partially Ben's fault. That's it, partially. Name all the stats you want, point to all the other QB's you want, the fact remains, the fault falls in many areas, none more than another. I do still, however, put Arians at the top of the list. You can say how many times Ben audibled, but who do you think came up with the plays he has to choose from when he audibles? Sure, he gets to pick the one he thinks will work best, but it is still a choice from a vanilla list meant for a team with different personnel.
I'll take Ben any day of the year over the other QB's in post season now. And yes, you can go ahead and say it, I'm a homer and proud of it. :yesnod: