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View Full Version : Roger Clemens - Hall of Fame?



Hawk Believer
12-14-2007, 02:20 PM
What do you think? Lots of people think Bonds should be shunned from the HOF even though he holds the most hallowed record in baseball.

Now the most prolific pitcher of our generation, a 7 time Cy Young winner, has been named in the Mitchell report as a performance enhancing drug abuser. What do you all think?

AZ_Steeler
12-14-2007, 02:37 PM
I would say yes only because these players (Clemens & Bonds) still had to go out and perform and do the things that have made them great. Taking enhancements didn't make Clemens throw a better curve ball and they didn't help Bonds with his hand eye coordination to make contact with the ball. All the enhancements did was prolong their careers, which was probably already HOF careers before the drugs. Yes, they cheated and got an little advantage... I'm really torn by it though but when you look at what they had to do, they still had to of had some talent.

Hawk Believer
12-14-2007, 03:05 PM
I would say yes only because these players (Clemens & Bonds) still had to go out and perform and do the things that have made them great. Taking enhancements didn't make Clemens throw a better curve ball and they didn't help Bonds with his hand eye coordination to make contact with the ball. All the enhancements did was prolong their careers, which was probably already HOF careers before the drugs. Yes, they cheated and got an little advantage... I'm really torn by it though but when you look at what they had to do, they still had to of had some talent.

I hear that argument a lot about Bonds and batting - the roids don't help you hit a fastball. But my understanding of muscle physiology seems to contradict that contention. Steroids and HGH, in combination with conditioning, help build muscle mass, especially quick twitch type II fibers. So by producing more of these mucsle fibers, Bonds, and the myriad of other players who were dropping trow (sp?) and shooting up, were definately hitting the ball harder and further.

But I think you could take it further and argue that the drugs actually did help with thier coordination. If you have more type II muscle fiber development, your bat speed goes up. Your bat speed goes up, you can watch that pitch for infintesimally small but still very significant time longer. And that enables a hitter to have a tiny bit of time longer to determine if and where he should swing. This is just me thinking out loud - please tear my theory apart if it doesn't stand up before I go stating it somewhere else.

I also think that roids did help Clemens curve ball. Taking these substances decrease inflamation and speed up recovery. The forces a pitcher puts on his arm are brutal. Roids not only helped Clemens through harder but also helped him pitch so consistantly.

The steroids may have even effected Clemens a bit psychologically (this is a bit of a stretch). Clemens made a carreer of throwing at the best hitters on teams to intimidate them and baseball allowed it. He as always been revered as a great competitor for it. But looking back now, the wierd irrational episodes like throwing a broken bat at a runner and then trying to say he mistook it for a ball seem to make more sense when you know he was on steroids. I that case it almost hurt him. But maybe at other times being an ornery bastard helped him.

I think its an impossible thing to go back and erase their records or anything like that. But to be snubbed for the HOF? I think thats a fitting punishment.

Dee Mca
12-14-2007, 04:11 PM
Let him in slap an * by his name and lets forget this whole mess. His records will be broken one day just like Bonds broke Aron's. Aaron broke Ruth's and sop on and so on. I only wish someday that thyecompile all the records for ALL pro baseball players. Where Bonds would be #3 and not #1.
#1-Sadaharu Oh---- Yomiuri Giants--------868 Homeruns
#2-Josh Gibson----- Pittsburgh Crawfords--800 Homeruns
#3-Barry Bonds-----San Fran Giants-------762 Homeruns
Maybe with the Mitchell report they should take all these guys and do like Landis did and ban them all from baseball. Then no Hall of Fame, No record hole.

Hawk Believer
12-28-2007, 10:44 AM
I have hears some propose that all of the players who are shown to have juiced should be have all their stastics redacted. Its really hard to erase a guy from baseball though. The statistics are so sacred. So if Bonds got "erased", do you go back and change the records of each pitcher he faced? The outcome of games he was in? Same with Clemens; Do you change the batting average of everyone who faced him?

I think denying HOF would be an appropriate punishment.

SteelersfaninPhilly
12-28-2007, 05:24 PM
he belongs in the hall. Hell there are people in the hall who have done worse.

BlitzburghNation
12-28-2007, 05:36 PM
Not really a big baseball fan,,,,,,,,,,But i think the one who's really gotten a raw deal over the years is Pete Rose

If he can't get in,,,,,Then these other cheaters shouldn't get in !!!!!!!!